Question: 10mm vs. 30 Carbine

[butlers]

I don't get it.

This is what folks say about 30 Carbine vs. predators (e.g. bears):

30 Carbine? You're joking, right?

.30 carbine is way too underpowered.

A 30 carbine would be woefully underpowered.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=507392

And this is what folks say about 10mm vs. predators (e.g. bears)

I've seen guys in Montana starting to switch to the 10mm Semis like the Glock with hardcast

The Danish Sirus Patrol of Greenland use the 10mm Glock for protection against polar bears. I would think if it is capable enough for that task, it should suffice for use against AK brown bears as well.

Many many guides, hunters, residents, and pilots in AK use 10mm Glocks now. So do the Fish and Game agents in many countries with big Browns and Polar bear populations.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1117761

However, in every comparable loading I could find, the 30 Carbine seems to outperform the 10mm (e.g. more muzzle energy, more penetration, etc).

Regular FMJ:

Caliber: 30 Carbine
Brand: Remington UMC FMJ
Bullet Weight: 110 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 1990 fps
Muzzle Energy: 967 ft lbs

vs.

Caliber: 10mm Auto
Brand: Remington UMC FMJ
Bullet Weight: 180 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 1150 fps
Muzzle Energy: 529 ft lbs

Soft Point:

Caliber: 30 Carbine
Brand: Federal Power-Shok SP
Bullet Weight: 110 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 1990 fps
Muzzle Energy: 967 ft lbs

vs.

Caliber: 10mm Auto
Brand: Federal Power-Shok JSP
Bullet Weight: 180 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 1275 fps
Muzzle Energy: 650 ft lbs

"Xtreme Cavitator"

Caliber: 30 Carbine
Brand: Underwood Xtreme Cavitator
Bullet Weight: 85 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 2100 fps
Muzzle Energy: 832 ft lbs
Penetration: 22.5 inches

vs.

Caliber: 10mm Auto
Brand: Underwood Xtreme Cavitator
Bullet Weight: 100 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 1825 fps
Muzzle Energy: 740 ft lbs
Penetration: 18.0 inches

So why is 30 Carbine "woefully underpowered" whereas 10mm is considered marginally adequate vs. bear (black or brown or otherwise)?

I'm overlooking something: Bullet weight/size matters more than muzzle energy, so you gotta think about power factor (mass x velocity). If you're talking kgr x ft/s (or Ns), then 10mm can edge out the 30 Carbine. Moreover, I'm failing to account for bullet diameter, sectional density, etc.

Conventional wisdom is wrong: The 30 Carbine is fired almost exclusively out of the M1 Carbine (aka the "girlfriend/wife/young shooter" gun). In contrast, the 10mm is a man's caliber (and the 40 is just a "short and weak" sissy version of the real thing). So, we have a perception problem.

For what it's worth, I don't own either caliber (i.e. I don't have a dog in this fight); I'm just researching and trying to understand the discrepancy.

[Canucky]

Review firearms (pistols) chambered in said calibers.

[Spyder]

People are terrible at being rational?

[tsmithson]

[butlers]

I get your point, but I'm not comparing an M1 Carbine to a 10mm semi-automatic pistol for bear defense (otherwise I would've posted in the "Camping, Hiking and Outdoor Activities" sub-forum).

I posted specifically in the "Ammo and Reloading" sub-forum to discuss the ballistics properties of the 30 Carbine caliber vs. the 10mm Auto caliber.

If 10mm (regardless of whether it's fired from a pistol [e.g. Glock 20] or a long gun [e.g. Hi-Point 1095]) is good enough, why isn't 30 Carbine (regardless of whether it's fired from a pistol [e.g. Ruger Blackhawk] or a long gun [e.g. M1 Carbine]) adequate as well?

[tsmithson]

You used opinions and examples of hunters so that is where the difference is.

[highpower790]

Make a comparison to the .357magnum ,the 30carbine is close.

[Deedle]

Caliber: 30 Carbine
Brand: Remington UMC FMJ
Bullet Weight: 110 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 1990 fps
Muzzle Energy: 967 ft lbs

vs.

Caliber: 10mm Auto
Brand: Remington UMC FMJ
Bullet Weight: 180 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 1150 fps
Muzzle Energy: 529 ft lbs

For instance the Buffalo Bore 180gr 10mm will have a muzzle velocity of about 1600 FPS as opposed to this 1150fps, if fired from a carbine length barrel.

That gives about 1000 ft/pounds with a much heavier bullet.

I still wouldn't carry a 10mm carbine for bear protection, because there are much better firearms that size. Apples and oranges. My Glock 20 is quite compact.

[tsmithson]

[God Bless America]

I get your point, but I'm not comparing an M1 Carbine to a 10mm semi-automatic pistol for bear defense (otherwise I would've posted in the "Camping, Hiking and Outdoor Activities" sub-forum).

You might not be "not comparing an M1 Carbine to a 10mm semi-automatic pistol" but everybody else is, though.

Nobody is talking about 10mm carbines for bear. Only pistols, and semiautos at that.

[kcheung2]

...snip...
I posted specifically in the "Ammo and Reloading" sub-forum to discuss the ballistics properties of the 30 Carbine caliber vs. the 10mm Auto caliber.

If 10mm (regardless of whether it's fired from a pistol [e.g. Glock 20] or a long gun [e.g. Hi-Point 1095]) is good enough, why isn't 30 Carbine (regardless of whether it's fired from a pistol [e.g. Ruger Blackhawk] or a long gun [e.g. M1 Carbine]) adequate as well?

You are making absolute comparisons when relative comparisons are more relevant. I could say that 500 horsepower is 500 horsepower, so therefore the adjectives that apply to a 500 horsepower car should also apply to a 500 horsepower aircraft carrier. Joules are joules, doesn't matter what's generating it. Thus, a 500 hp car is really powerful so a 500hp aircraft carrier should be also, right?

Or how about brain power...a cat that can do division is no big deal, after all any 10 year old human can do the same. Takes the same amount of neurons.

So yes, a .30 carbine fired from a long gun is relatively low powered vs a 10mm fired from a pistol, even though in absolute terms the 10mm has inferior kinetic energy.

[MrElectric03]

One thing to keep in mind about 10mm is that most factory loads suck. That's what a lot of that data is based on. Handloading is where it's at for 10mm. I'm sure you can also hop up .30 carbine as well but there are very few pistols that fire it. I know Ruger has the Blackhawk and I believe there was an Automag as well. The Glock 20 and Glock 40 have become very well respected for carrying in the woods around me and can handle some heavy loads, I fire stuff out of my Glock that I am afraid to run through my old Colt 10mm 1911s.

Also as others have said, I believe the data you have posted shows the .30 carbine coming out of an M1 carb rifle barrel where the 10mm is probably from a 4-5" barrel from a G20 or S&W. also consider that most bear loads are going to be 180gr (minimum, I prefer 200-220gr) and velocities will be 1300-1400 fps , that will change your impact energy considerably. You are going for breaking the bears skull and having the bullet go through its brain like a grenade. The .30 carbine typically only uses 80-110 gr rounds and a jhp or even jacketed rn won't hit like hardcast lead.

10mm is a beast of a round. If you get the opportunity I would highly suggest you try it, I'm sure you will get addicted like the rest of us. I do t buy into the YouTube videos that claim it better than a .44 mag but it far surpasses .357 mag and is close to .41 mag in my experience. I choose it because the most you will get in a revolver is 6 rounds of .44 mag and the Glock 20 is a 15 round mag in free states. I run a threaded AlphaWolf barrel and compensator on mine and can put many rounds on a 4" plate quick. It all comes down to what you are comfortable with.

[MongooseV8]

One thing to keep in mind about 10mm is that most factory loads suck. That's what a lot of that data is based on. Handloading is where it's at for 10mm. I'm sure you can also hop up .30 carbine as well but there are very few pistols that fire it. I know Ruger has the Blackhawk and I believe there was an Automag as well. The Glock 20 and Glock 40 have become very well respected for carrying in the woods around me and can handle some heavy loads, I fire stuff out of my Glock that I am afraid to run through my old Colt 10mm 1911s.

Also as others have said, I believe the data you have posted shows the .30 carbine coming out of an M1 carb rifle barrel where the 10mm is probably from a 4-5" barrel from a G20 or S&W. also consider that most bear loads are going to be 180gr (minimum, I prefer 200-220gr) and velocities will be 1300-1400 fps , that will change your impact energy considerably. You are going for breaking the bears skull and having the bullet go through its brain like a grenade. The .30 carbine typically only uses 80-110 gr rounds and a jhp or even jacketed rn won't hit like hardcast lead.

10mm is a beast of a round. If you get the opportunity I would highly suggest you try it, I'm sure you will get addicted like the rest of us. I do t buy into the YouTube videos that claim it better than a .44 mag but it far surpasses .357 mag and is close to .41 mag in my experience. I choose it because the most you will get in a revolver is 6 rounds of .44 mag and the Glock 20 is a 15 round mag in free states. I run a threaded AlphaWolf barrel and compensator on mine and can put many rounds on a 4" plate quick. It all comes down to what you are comfortable with.

Nailed it.

[kcstott]

I think both are pretty useless for large bear i.e. over 750 pounds.

Personally i would not be in Alaska without something suitable for Africa but thats just me. there's a whole thread on the 10mm loads for Alaska all this hype of how all the guides are using 10mm. how powerful a 45-70 and "can kill anything on this planet" only to find out he was concerned with bears in the 400 pound range. 44 mag and a 35 rem will do the trick in that case. I though we were talking about real bears not stuffed toys.

Well a properly placed 22LR can kill anything on this planet but it's proper placement. we are not talking about killing an animal we are talking about stoping an animal. and there is no better authority on stoping an animal than the PH's in Africa. It's big heavy bullets, either expanding or solid depending on the game that rule the continent. My personal choice is a 458 lott or win mag minimum. a hand full of 450 grain DG rounds and I'm good.

handgun?? 44 mag in a six in a barrel shooting the heaviest bullets i can find. also cut for full moon clips so reloads are fast.

[Kokopelli]

10mm has worked against bears. From Defense Against Bears with Pistols: 97% Success rate, 37 incidents by Caliber