Modern Muzzleloader Ammo Questions

[Donny1]

First I want to say that I looked around the web for a more specific place to ask questions and found a lot of snobbery toward modern, inline muzzloaders, lol. Lot's of traditionalists out there. But I figure some here who reload will also be likely to know something about black powder guns because virtually every load is a hand load. And.... when I started loading 12 ga a while back I got nothing but excellent, friendly advise here. Over 2k shotshells loaded and fired with no issues.

Onward!

I have my eye on a CVA Optima Inline muzzleloader. I understand that I won't be shooting a ton of rounds but I also don't want to spend $1+ a round either since most shooting will be punching paper.

From what I'm reading round balls are out due to the twist rate of modern guns. From what I understand the most economical way would be to use bulk sabots and projectiles, and something like Berry's .44 or .45 bullets will work fine. I just really do want to put myself in an unsafe situation by experimenting or using or doing something I shouldn't.

I appreciate any advise you can offer!

[Whiterabbit]

Sure!

#1. Don't count out roundballs if you are willing to patch etc. They may work fine in the twist rate if you are just looking to thump paper plates and steels at 100 yards. Try and see, if you are the experimenting type.

#2 bulk sabots are also fine. Also look at cast bullets for even cheaper plinking. Also note that you can buy boutique sabots for cheap in bulk. For example, I bought hundreds of Barnes TEZ sabots just by calling Barnes and ordering direct.

#3 it is really hard to be unsafe with a muzzleloader using black powder. By the time you are overloaded, you just end up shooting the powder out of the barrel and make a wet mess to clean up. No harm, no foul.

#4 keep the snobbery at bay by using real black powder. The only substitute I'd ever use is BH209, because the rest suck. their hydroscopic-ness (for lack of a better word) is impressive, and a huge mess. My suggestion, stick with goex. You'll have an answer for the snobs "yeah, well, at least I use Holy Black" (and frankly it really is better).

#5 find out the max load recommended and give it a whirl. If you think 12 ga can be brutal, 150 grains of BP under a 300 grain 45 cal will remind you of your 3" slugs . Most of your shooting is likely to be 30-60 grains of black with a 200-300 grain bullet.

#6 if you make a habit of shooting your inline, your regular shooting will improve. Something about knowing that you can't just jack another cartridge in and go makes you take your time more on every fundamental from trigger to followthrough.

#7 the snobs are right, consider buying a comparably priced caplock and shoot PRB's You will be anyways if you find the inline any sort of fun, it's a gateway

#8 minor point, I recommend swabbing between every single shot. Makes shooting take longer, but it's a good habit to get in and is an idiot-proof way to tighten up your groups. Plenty of people develop loads that don't need swabbing every time, but it's like snapping a gas check on a cast bullet: cheap insurance that improves ballistic uniformity.

#9 going 3 for 3 on a 100 yard target with irons in a muzzleloader is supremely satisfying when standing next to an AR shooter who in the same time period went 3 for 30 with a red dot.

[Whiterabbit]

#10 when the gateway kicks in and you buy an open sight sidelock, go find a local club and try some target shooting matches. Your shooting will improve REAL quick.

[sl0re10]

First I want to say that I looked around the web for a more specific place to ask questions and found a lot of snobbery toward modern, inline muzzloaders, lol. Lot's of traditionalists out there. But I figure some here who reload will also be likely to know something about black powder guns because virtually every load is a hand load. And.... when I started loading 12 ga a while back I got nothing but excellent, friendly advise here. Over 2k shotshells loaded and fired with no issues.

Onward!

I have my eye on a CVA Optima Inline muzzleloader. I understand that I won't be shooting a ton of rounds but I also don't want to spend $1+ a round either since most shooting will be punching paper.

From what I'm reading round balls are out due to the twist rate of modern guns. From what I understand the most economical way would be to use bulk sabots and projectiles, and something like Berry's .44 or .45 bullets will work fine. I just really do want to put myself in an unsafe situation by experimenting or using or doing something I shouldn't.

I appreciate any advise you can offer!

+1 on round ball not being out.

I shoot round balls with my 12g. They are accurate IMO.

I do the whole patch, card, wax, lube, et cetera (like a muzzle loader) inside a 12g shell.

Black powder is fun and so is Se7en... but they're corrosive so if you can find a smokeless recipe it might be less work afterwards.

[rsrocket1]

Check out modern muzzleloder and frontier muzzle loading. One of those sites was founded because of the poor treatment he got from the Davey Crockett wannabe's.

Inline ML's are a great way to ease into muzzle loading because you are only taking the cartridge out of the equation. The other parts are much more reliable than a sidelock cap or heaven forbid, a flinchlock. Nothing wrong with a flintlock but there is also nothing wrong with hunting with a snare or grinding the glass for your own telescope either.

If you like muzzle loading with an inline then you'll know whether you want to go caplock, flintlock or even matchlock.

As for powders, BH209 is essentially smokeless powder. Shooting a 50 cal inline with BH209 makes about as much smoke as a .308. Shooting with real BP or some of the subs is much more impressive when it comes to generating a cloud.

I have an Optima Pro and Optima V2. Both bought used for very little and they are just about equal in terms of performance. I love BH209 but the cost is high. I got a bunch of Alliant BlackMZ at Sportsmans Warehouse @ $10/# thinking it was going to be discontinued but so far it hasn't and I probably have a lifetime's supply of the stuff. The granules are the size of cat litter ant it meter's terribly but it ignites easily and cleans up with nothing more than CLP.

I started out using T/C sabots made for 45 caliber bullets ($0.10/ea) and shot my Lee TL452-230-TC cast bullets in them. I can get 3" groups at 100 yards with 70g and shoot all day without knocking my shoulder off. I now shoot 250g Lee REAL bullets to lower the cost down to 3.5 cents per bullet and 16 cents per shot which is only about 50% more expensive than shooting full power cast .308 rifle shots.

[Donny1]

Thank you.

So my takeaways are that for my needs I can use any decent bulk 45 bullets and sabots. Not really interested in patching and all that. I figure I can work up a budget practice load and find something like Powerbelt for hunting (rare occasions).

The only substitute I'd ever use is BH209, because the rest suck

I thought substitutes were cleaner.

Nothing wrong with a flintlock but there is also nothing wrong with hunting with a snare or grinding the glass for your own telescope either.

LOL, This

Most of your shooting is likely to be 30-60 grains of black with a 200-300 grain bullet.

I never see anyone talking about loads that small, less than have of a magnum charge. Is that adequate for practice at 100 yds and what kind of punch does it have? I load 12ga so playing around with a load I understand but these are wide ranging loads, 30-150? unheard of with smokeless.

consider buying a comparably priced caplock and shoot PRB's You will be anyways if you find the inline any sort of fun, it's a gateway

Likely not me. The appeal of all this for me is that I like to tinker and work on guns so understanding the mechanics is easy, and it looks fun. I like that the initial investment is fairly low for some huge knock down capability, no FFL. I also like to rotate between my toys. I'll shoot Trap for a while then switch to my rimefires, loving a new 22 wmr right now, take the AR and sidearms out a couple times, then maybe the compound bow. This will just be another one to rotate in to the mix. Looking at a PCP air rifle, talk about a rabbit hole, gees.

[Whiterabbit]

In my experience, substitutes are far more dirty than the real thing. The worst of the bunch was American Pioneer. I swear an APP fouled bore could pull water out of moon dirt.

Safety note, 150 grains was listed max in the handi rifle. Your rifle might max out at 100 grains, best to check.

Last suggestion, make it a one-load-one-rifle gun. Find a sabot it lieks, find a bullet it likes, find a charge it likes, and just shoot that. Any range, plinking, target, whatever. It's a better recipe for accuracy. Bonus if the bullet it likes has a similar weight barnes or other copper bullet available to minimize development for the very occasional hunting you mentioned. Best of all if you can just swap bullets at loading and go.

[Divernhunter]

I started with BP rifles/pistols long ago. I have not used my in years so my take on it is dated to a degree.
I used Pryodex and had excellent results. I also used Goex real BP but went to using the Pryodex in an in-line 50cal, 54cal side hammer rifle, 50cal single shot pistol and a Ruger BP revolver.
We tried quite a number of bullets for hunting and the very best was the Barnes with the large HP and their mag sabot. Deer shot with this dropped like struck by lighting. Our in-line rifles were very accurate with them. In my 54cal I used lee maxi-ball, real or a conical bullet. It killed but not as fast as the Barnes combo. I did shoot round ball but never for hunting.

[Donny1]

Safety note, 150 grains was listed max in the handi rifle. Your rifle might max out at 100 grains, best to check.

It is Magnum rated, max 150gn.