Load data and outdated rifles?

[dwinters14]

I was talking to a fellow gun owner about reloading, and velocity came up. I'm relatively new to reloading, and never really paid much attention to it. I just went by loads in the book, if my gun shot it accurately i was happy.

But I started looking into these loads and they always seem to be shot out a long, fast twist barrel.

Why is that? Especially for .223 rem, I doubt most people are shooting that out of a bolt gun with those specs.

Same with the service rifle, always out of a 20". I think it's fair to assume the most popular rifle in all of the US is a 16" 1/7 or 1/8 twist AR.

Is this for BC? Or are all these companies living by old ways? It'd just be helpful to know roughly your FPS without guessing, doing inaccurate math or buying a chrono.

[OpenSightsOnly]

Depends on your reloading manual. Hornady has specific service rifle loads (223 and 308) while Sierra and Berger don't specifically talk about that, no big deal really.

For 223 service rifle, to get the most out of that platform, the 75 or 80 grain bullets are long and require a 7 or 8 twist and 20" barrel.

[Jta]

From the way I’ve always viewed it the loads in the book were never a do all end all list, only a rough starting and stopping point. Even is you had a rifle built the same as listed odds are you wouldn’t get the same velocities but it would close.

[kcstott]

I was talking to a fellow gun owner about reloading, and velocity came up. I'm relatively new to reloading, and never really paid much attention to it. I just went by loads in the book, if my gun shot it accurately i was happy.

But I started looking into these loads and they always seem to be shot out a long, fast twist barrel.

Why is that? Especially for .223 rem, I doubt most people are shooting that out of a bolt gun with those specs.

Same with the service rifle, always out of a 20". I think it's fair to assume the most popular rifle in all of the US is a 16" 1/7 or 1/8 twist AR.

Is this for BC? Or are all these companies living by old ways? It'd just be helpful to know roughly your FPS without guessing, doing inaccurate math or buying a chrono.

If you think powder and bullet manufacturers shot their loads out of rifles you’re wrong. Ideally every load would be shot out of a universal receiver. There are a few books with a few loads that have rifles listed as the test weapon but very few and far between.

This is why when you build loads you need to look at what velocity and barrel length is being used. Then you can make a guestement on what you should see.

On and just because the AR is the most popular rifle, That don’t make it the most popular to load for.

[dwinters14]

I see. So essentially having a chrono seems like a must if you're going to reload.

I just cross referenced my loads to my velocity and it looks like I'm shooting in and around 2500-2600 out of a 16" and 2800 out of a 20".

How does that fair in terms of 223 and 5.56.

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[russ69]

...Same with the service rifle, always out of a 20"...

That is because in the mid eighties the AR15A2 and HBAR came out with their 1/7 twist barrels. Finally the AR15 was suitable for service rifle competition and it was able to shoot the new heavy bullets. The bullet companies used these rifles for new bullet development. Yes things change slowly and they are still using these rifles mostly because they still get good data from them and they have a lot of historical data to refer to.

[Divernhunter]

The only way you will know what your loads are doing is to shoot them over a Chrono.
Not everyone shoots/wants or is interested in AR's. Many of us load for much more than the Mattel Toys and some of us have done so even before they were in use with the military or the regular people. The AR just might be most popular especially from the younger people. It is not necessary true with older shooter and especially hunters. It all depends on the audience you are talking about or catering to.
There are lots of bolt 223's out there.

Yes much of the book data is using a universal receiver and not an actual rifle. Each rifle will usually shoot at a different FPS even with the same barrel length.

Not everyone uses a Chrono and they can be perfectly happy with the ammo they load. Others(like me) really enjoy the hobby of reloading and like getting all the information on any given load we make. I would also like to point out that often the book values do not reflect the actual shooting specs.

[kcstott]

I see. So essentially having a chrono seems like a must if you're going to reload.

I just cross referenced my loads to my velocity and it looks like I'm shooting in and around 2500-2600 out of a 16" and 2800 out of a 20".

How does that fair in terms of 223 and 5.56.

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so you are asking me to second guess your data pulled from a published reloading manual??

This is why i hate putting load data on the web, trust the book will ya

[dwinters14]

so you are asking me to second guess your data pulled from a published reloading manual??

This is why i hate putting load data on the web, trust the book will ya

I'm using the book. But as stated the barrel and twist rates are different.

I simply looked at a bunch of verified velocities with the same bullet weight and barrel length as mine and guesstimated an FPS.

I know I won't truly know unless I get out to the range and hook up a chrono but I don't have one.



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[sghart]

I have never loaded for velocity. For many years I worked up accurate loads without ever owning a chronograph.

I bought my first chronograph just three years ago and I am almost 60. I did it the old fashioned way.

I would start with a suggested load in the manual. Load three rounds of each, going up 1/2 gr at a time. When the loads showed signs of over pressure I would start back down the ladder, now testing for accuracy. Easy peasy. Seriously, what good is velocity if your accuracy is no good?

And the game that I have killed with these loads couldn't tell the difference between a 2200 fps load and a 2600 fps load.

The chronograph only served to verify my records and also to verify some commonly held beliefs.

Probably the best tool that I have purchased for load development was the Lee hand held press. When I was working up loads I would prep a lot of brass. I would then pack everything in a box for a trip to the range. Since the brass was sized, trimmed and primed I could add a powder charge and seat a bullet at the bench. I could play with powder charges as well as seating depth.

Chronographs are nice but not necessary.

[Jimmy's]

I've been loading since 1979 and only recently bought a Chrony. 3 years later I have yet to use it. I load for accuracy over velocity but the cartridges I shoot the most are fast anyway. I wouldn't worry about the speed of a 223/5.56

[JackEllis]

If you're plinking or you're hunting at relatively short (under 250 yards) distance, a few (100-300) fps won't make that much difference. IMHO safety, accuracy and consistency in that order are always more important than MV.

If you don't have access to a ballistic calculator, this one is available on the web, and others are available for your phone. I find them useful for understanding how the different variables affect trajectory. What you're going to find is that differences in muzzle velocity typically don't have much *practical* effect on point of impact until you're out past 200 yards or more. Speed seems to matter if you're a distance shooter or a bench rest shooter at 200 yards or more or if you're trying to use copper bullets at the extreme end of their practical range.

[scotty99]

[kcstott]

I'm using the book. But as stated the barrel and twist rates are different.

I simply looked at a bunch of verified velocities with the same bullet weight and barrel length as mine and guesstimated an FPS.

I know I won't truly know unless I get out to the range and hook up a chrono but I don't have one.



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until you get a chrono or access to one. Do the rounds cycle through the weapon good? no sign of over pressure? then use it. you are over thinking this. I've had a chrono long before i reloaded but even with reloading i seldom used it. it rarely worked correctly. that pile of junk was replaced with a Magnetospeed. I don't have that issue anymore and Now I chrono everything. but more because I can and not because I have to.

Like others have said a few hundred FPS won't matter for plinking and won't matter till after 400 yards.



Oh and twist rate unless at the extreme end of the spectrum will not effect velocity, barrel length does. on 308 based cases and up 20-30 fps per inch is about right, smaller cartridges 30-50 fps per inch is the norm. Remember that book is a guide and shows you what you should expect using a similar combination. It won't be exact, and that is where you will have to learn what is going to add up to a correct load.

stuff like lighter bullets need faster powders. Slower powders produce less pressure all other things being equal. stuff like that.

[pennstater]

I have never loaded for velocity. For many years I worked up accurate loads without ever owning a chronograph.

I bought my first chronograph just three years ago and I am almost 60. I did it the old fashioned way.

I would start with a suggested load in the manual. Load three rounds of each, going up 1/2 gr at a time. When the loads showed signs of over pressure I would start back down the ladder, now testing for accuracy. Easy peasy. Seriously, what good is velocity if your accuracy is no good?

And the game that I have killed with these loads couldn't tell the difference between a 2200 fps load and a 2600 fps load.

The chronograph only served to verify my records and also to verify some commonly held beliefs.

Probably the best tool that I have purchased for load development was the Lee hand held press. When I was working up loads I would prep a lot of brass. I would then pack everything in a box for a trip to the range. Since the brass was sized, trimmed and primed I could add a powder charge and seat a bullet at the bench. I could play with powder charges as well as seating depth.

Chronographs are nice but not necessary.

Does the Lee hand held press take RCBS shell holders?