Stupid reloading question; which group?

[Kwikvette]

To start, let me say that I'm upset about two things;

1. My scope had moved throughout my shooting session today; abrasive marks left on my scope body as well as the scope having being pushed back.

2. No chrono; I know I know I need to buy one but I only reload for 2 rifles. This one's my fault.

With that being said, I loaded .308 for the first time. Many of you know that I've only reloaded for .223 and only for two different AR15's. I've taken the knowledge a lot here have provided and went out to shoot my .308

.308 Winchester, RL15 powder, 175gr SMK, Federal GMM 210M primers, new Federal GMM brass at 2.0080" (avg), all loaded to 2.7975" OAL. I used this length because it was the average length of my factory Federal Gold Medal Match ammo.





As you can see, if I do my part, the rifle shoots the factory stuff pretty well (all 5 shot groups). I'm sure the groups could be tighter with a better shooter...

My question boils down to; do I find a better charge IE 41.8gr and 41.9gr? Do I look for vertical stringing? I don't know if it's me, the scope, or both but both the 41.7gr group and 42gr group look promising. They just seem to spread laterally?

[CSACANNONEER]

5 shot groups are much better indicators than 3 shot groups.

[Kwikvette]

Those are great results for a gun with a loose scope! Most guys would be buying lottery tickets after shooting 3's!

I'd split the difference between 41.7 and 42.0, and start working on seating depth.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/570611/hornady-lock-n-load-overall-length-gauge-bolt-action

Not much more to do after that. I would start thinking about neck turning, and maybe trying some different neck tension.

EDIT: Wait a minute, are those three shot groups?!?! Forget all the complimentary things I said!!!

I don't see three shot groups being very useful in load development. They can deceive you. Shoot fives.

5 shot groups are much better indicators than 3 shot groups.

They're all 5 shot groups except the bottom right 2 with factory ammo.

Same way I've always shot my .223 groups.

As for the scope being loose, maybe a bit of an exaggeration but it did move within the rings slightly.



You can see where the scope sat and where it sits now. I'm sure it moved a bit last week as well but maybe not enough to have noticed it.

[Kwikvette]

I was going to mess with seating depth, since you mentioned it, but I can't get a very good read for my rifle.

I've got the hornady OAL gauge as well as the modified casing for .308. The problem I run into when using it is the modified case is a bit tight for my 175gr SMK's. When tapping the rod to gently push the bullet forward, it's hard to tell whether I've hit the lands or if the bullet is just too tight inside the case.

By the way, all ammunition loaded from a Forster Co-Ax single stage and RCBS gold medal match die.

[DSMeyer]

Can’t stress this enough, go buy a phat wrench or a ring torque wrench. These only two reasons why scopes move in the rings. Improper rings or improper torquing. Once I started torquing my ring fasteners to the proper torque a lot of my scope issues vanished.

[OpenSightsOnly]

I've got the hornady OAL gauge as well as the modified casing for .308. The problem I run into when using it is the modified case is a bit tight for my 175gr SMK's. When tapping the rod to gently push the bullet forward, it's hard to tell whether I've hit the lands or if the bullet is just too tight inside the case.

Call Hornady for a return auth for your modified case since there shouldn't be any "friction" or binding when the 308 modified case is used with your 175 SMK or any 308 bullet. You should be able to feel the bullet hitting the lands.

42 grains of RL15 looks good. 2 or 3 5-round groups should let you know if your rifle likes it.

If you have 175 FGMM and if they are accurate for your rifle, fire a few rounds over the chrono and compare that velocity to your 42 grains of RL15 with the 175 SMK.

[3000+]

Great job, dude!!! Spectacular.

[Kwikvette]

My torque wrenches are all in ft/lbs; just found people torqueing their NF rings to 65+/- in/lbs. I'll see what I can order up with my $50 Lowe's card that I've had for years.

Call Hornady for a return auth for your modified case since there shouldn't be any "friction" or binding when the 308 modified case is used with your 175 SMK or any 308 bullet. You should be able to feel the bullet hitting the lands.

42 grains of RL15 looks good. 2 or 3 5-round groups should let you know if your rifle likes it.

If you have 175 FGMM and if they are accurate for your rifle, fire a few rounds over the chrono and compare that velocity to your 42 grains of RL15 with the 175 SMK.

Yeah, I did think it was weird that the .308 case had so much resistance yet the .223 case worked out really well.

I'll load up a few more rounds of 42gr then; just not sure when one really stops when trying several charges.

I've got a ton of FGMM in 175gr so comparing the 2 won't be an issue. The issue is buying one of these and having it sit for quite awhile if I find a load that works well right away - https://www.midwayusa.com/product/52...ar-chronograph

Great job, dude!!! Spectacular.

Thanks! Now stop being sick and come out to shoot

[Dave626]

If you are just Doing group at 100 yards, just pick the tightest group. If you doing some long range pass 800 yards, you better chrono your load to find the node that give you the least extreme spread. High ES # = bigger vertical spread at longer range

[Switchbarrel]

Look at the “finding your lands” video. A little tedious but, I get better results his way vs. my Hornady gauge.

https://www.wheeleraccuracy.com/videos

Some light reading. As with everything on the ‘net, you have to separate the
Wheat from the chaff.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/

-Rick

[OpenSightsOnly]

I'll load up a few more rounds of 42gr then; just not sure when one really stops when trying several charges.

IIRC, 175 FGGM uses approx 42 or 43 grains of IMR 4064 to get to the velocity of 2650. That velocity is good for 1k.

Don't get too caught up with the 100 yard cloverleaf

[17+1]

If you are just Doing group at 100 yards, just pick the tightest group. If you doing some long range pass 800 yards, you better chrono your load to find the node that give you the least extreme spread. High ES # = bigger vertical spread at longer range

IIRC, 175 FGGM uses approx 42 or 43 grains of IMR 4064 to get to the velocity of 2650. That velocity is good for 1k.

Don't get too caught up with the 100 yard cloverleaf

Good advice, I agree.

The only time I used to fool around with loads is for a rifle match. If I was shooting steel silhouette I’d just quit the subtle stuff and put my foot down using a heavy charge, won’t knock down the rams at 500 meters if you’re pu$$y footing around. Any other situation and I pick a load shy of max charge and go with it. Going to be more than adequate for most situations with the exceptions being of you’re trying to shoot out the x-ring on an F class target.

[longrange1]

Stupid reloading question; which group?

this is one of the reasons why i quit using standard rings...ARC M10s .



as far as the groups and which to choose...id tell you to shoot them all at 500yds and see what happens before you start changing things...those are pretty decent groups and you may be surprised what happens farther out.

Not to whore up your thread but heres the final tuning on the new 6.5x47 over the Christmas weekend...#3 is 36.8 not 38.6...im dyslexic lol...



And 36.9g of varget at 850yds...1 high right....2/10s left 1 high above group 1/10 down and 3...I know 3 shot groups don’t matter but when they are 1.5”s at 850yds I’m pretty sure they matter a little....also like I say I’m not a group shooter...



The point is the 36.9g load could be tuned a little more but why?

[NorCalFocus]

1. You don't need a chrony to do load development. All a chrony tells you is how fast your bullet is going. To many guys get to wrapped up in speed and end up chasing speed and not stability. (Yes you can check your reloading practices and stuff with one, but its not needed for building a good load)

2. Your not chasing group size either. Your chasing vertical (lack of it) spread.

So looking at your target OP, you see a bit of vertical in the first group, 41.4. Then it goes away and comes back again at 42.3. So all the load in between those two loads is your node. That what your looking for. Now what you want to do is find the very middle of that node. That is going to give you the most leway in your loads. Say you throw a charge +/- .1 grains, if your in the middle of your node, it won't make that big of difference. If your at the ragged edge of a node, it could throw that round out of the node.

[Kwikvette]

If you are just Doing group at 100 yards, just pick the tightest group. If you doing some long range pass 800 yards, you better chrono your load to find the node that give you the least extreme spread. High ES # = bigger vertical spread at longer range

That's where I'm probably chasing my tail; I'm trying to load develop but doing so only at 100 because for this entire year, I haven't done anything over that. Next year that'll change though

Look at the “finding your lands” video. A little tedious but, I get better results his way vs. my Hornady gauge.

https://www.wheeleraccuracy.com/videos

Some light reading. As with everything on the ‘net, you have to separate the
Wheat from the chaff.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/

-Rick

Thank you for those links, ton of info!

IIRC, 175 FGGM uses approx 42 or 43 grains of IMR 4064 to get to the velocity of 2650. That velocity is good for 1k.

Don't get too caught up with the 100 yard cloverleaf

I opted for RL15 (since I've read that Federal also used it) and it's what I have stockpiled.

Good advice, I agree.

The only time I used to fool around with loads is for a rifle match. If I was shooting steel silhouette I’d just quit the subtle stuff and put my foot down using a heavy charge, won’t knock down the rams at 500 meters if you’re pu$$y footing around. Any other situation and I pick a load shy of max charge and go with it. Going to be more than adequate for most situations with the exceptions being of you’re trying to shoot out the x-ring on an F class target.

I believe max load is 45gr with RL15; is it possible that there's a more accurate node higher up vs where I'm at?

this is one of the reasons why i quit using standard rings...ARC M10s .



as far as the groups and which to choose...id tell you to shoot them all at 500yds and see what happens before you start changing things...those are pretty decent groups and you may be surprised what happens farther out.

Not to whore up your thread but heres the final tuning on the new 6.5x47 over the Christmas weekend...#3 is 36.8 not 38.6...im dyslexic lol...

[img]

And 36.9g of varget at 850yds...1 high right....2/10s left 1 high above group 1/10 down and 3...I know 3 shot groups don’t matter but when they are 1.5”s at 850yds I’m pretty sure they matter a little....also like I say I’m not a group shooter...

[img]

The point is the 36.9g load could be tuned a little more but why?

Nice shooting, and always appreciate your insight!

I'll have to check those rings out, but man they're costly. I'm running Nightforce rings so they're not throw-aways either...it's just user-error. I need to torque things down to spec.

1. You don't need a chrony to do load development. All a chrony tells you is how fast your bullet is going. To many guys get to wrapped up in speed and end up chasing speed and not stability. (Yes you can check your reloading practices and stuff with one, but its not needed for building a good load)

2. Your not chasing group size either. Your chasing vertical (lack of it) spread.

So looking at your target OP, you see a bit of vertical in the first group, 41.4. Then it goes away and comes back again at 42.3. So all the load in between those two loads is your node. That what your looking for. Now what you want to do is find the very middle of that node. That is going to give you the most leway in your loads. Say you throw a charge +/- .1 grains, if your in the middle of your node, it won't make that big of difference. If your at the ragged edge of a node, it could throw that round out of the node.

Thanks Norcal!

That's the information I was looking for. I wasn't sure where I read it but I think it's the lack of vertical spread one needs to look for and you've confirmed it. I will shoot a few more loaded between 41.7 and 42 if that sounds right?

As another poster stated above, being just shy of a max charge, could there be a more accurate load between 43-45? 45gr is max charge from where I've read online as well as my reloading manuals.