Win 231 on cast 180grain 40S&W load data

[Redemption]

Swapping away from 700x to Win 231 due to metering issues, most of you know that story already. Either way after consulting the google gods and my book....(I should probably get an updated book) I better consult with my cherished fellow Calgunners.

180 grain cast FP

Hogedon site says:

For 180gn Barnes FP: 4.4 - 5.1
For 180gn Hornady XTP: 4.1 - 5.0

For a decent mid load I should be nice and happy at 4.6 correct?

[pacrat]

Should be OK. But you should do a work up. There are no truly safe shortcuts.

Hodgdon site says 4.4 to 5.1 of 231, for 180 gr Berry's. Which is closer to cast than the jacketed you referenced.

[Redemption]

Should be OK. But you should do a work up. There are no truly safe shortcuts.

Hodgdon site says 4.4 to 5.1 of 231, for 180 gr Berry's. Which is closer to cast than the jacketed you referenced.

I tend to agree, You are right so no one should do what I am about to say I do. I usually generally start at a midload and then unless I am unhappy with my results I just stay at a midload. for the type of reloading I do Im not doing any fine tuning, not for pistol.

Ive done full work ups for my rifle loads on my bolt guns and ill probably never adjust those loads from the fine tuning point Ive put them in,

[wbunning]

Should be OK. But you should do a work up. There are no truly safe shortcuts.

Hodgdon site says 4.4 to 5.1 of 231, for 180 gr Berry's. Which is closer to cast than the jacketed you referenced.

^^^ this. A lot will depend upon the firearm you use and how much crimp you like Do you have a chronograph? If not, spend the bux. Even a cheapie is better than none when working up a load. More fun, too.

Anyway, even for pistol loads, start at the low end to be sure they are cycling and not leading the barrel. Then work up incrementally while watching pressure signs, case obturation and accuracy factors. Are you casting your own, or using "store-bought" ?

New loads are FUN! But they'll be more funner if you take the time and trouble to dial them in. All that said, I get the best results in my home-cast, powder-coated .40 bullets with Bullseye.

[Redemption]

^^^ this. A lot will depend upon the firearm you use and how much crimp you like Do you have a chronograph? If not, spend the bux. Even a cheapie is better than none when working up a load. More fun, too.

Anyway, even for pistol loads, start at the low end to be sure they are cycling and not leading the barrel. Then work up incrementally while watching pressure signs, case obturation and accuracy factors. Are you casting your own, or using "store-bought" ?

New loads are FUN! But they'll be more funner if you take the time and trouble to dial them in. All that said, I get the best results in my home-cast, powder-coated .40 bullets with Bullseye.

yeah my cast boolits are epoxy paint coated, and I cast myself so I dont get any fouling never have on a mid load, which is more or less all I reload.

I light crimp, just enough to keep ammo from getting out of wack during storage.

I dont crono, not on pistol loads. Im not the fine tuning, make that ammo work perfectly in this exact pistol kind of reloader. I treat my pistols like a defensive platform because that is where my training is, as well as the industry I work in. Dont get me wrong I wouldnt judge those who do, it just isnt the direction I am geared where pistol is concerned.

For me, in my situation it sort of defeats the point of reloading if I need to do that much of a work up for pistol rounds.

[wbunning]

yeah my cast boolits are epoxy paint coated, and I cast myself so I dont get any fouling never have on a mid load, which is more or less all I reload.

I light crimp, just enough to keep ammo from getting out of wack during storage.

I dont crono, not on pistol loads. Im not the fine tuning, make that ammo work perfectly in this exact pistol kind of reloader. I treat my pistols like a defensive platform because that is where my training is, as well as the industry I work in. Dont get me wrong I wouldnt judge those who do, it just isnt the direction I am geared where pistol is concerned.

For me, in my situation it sort of defeats the point of reloading if I need to do that much of a work up for pistol rounds.

Understood. But that would tend to make me question why you would bother to reload pistol rounds at all? Why not just save the lead for your rifle rounds and buy factory HD/SD ammo for your pistol? If pinpoint accuracy is not a thing, it doesn't take more than a once per month trip to the range and a box of factory ammo to maintain adequate HD proficiency.

I mean, casting and coating is already a painstaking, time-intensive endeavor and the few extra minutes at the bench to create a 20-round ladder load for a new powder isn't all that much of an additional investment in time.

Hey, don't get me wrong, Not chastising here. What works for you is THE most important component. I'm just saying that I think the small extra effort do the testing is worth the time, regardless of platform.

Good shooting to ya!

[Redemption]

Understood. But that would tend to make me question why you would bother to reload pistol rounds at all? Why not just save the lead for your rifle rounds and buy factory HD/SD ammo for your pistol? If pinpoint accuracy is not a thing, it doesn't take more than a once per month trip to the range and a box of factory ammo to maintain adequate HD proficiency.

I mean, casting and coating is already a painstaking, time-intensive endeavor and the few extra minutes at the bench to create a 20-round ladder load for a new powder isn't all that much of an additional investment in time.

Hey, don't get me wrong, Not chastising here. What works for you is THE most important component. I'm just saying that I think the small extra effort do the testing is worth the time, regardless of platform.

Good shooting to ya!

I only reload for one rifle caliber 30-06 and some time ago I got an unreasonably good deal on a large amount of 175 grain Nosler custom competition projectiles Id need to go check that component drawer but it was something like 600 or 700 projectiles. The deal I got was so good that Im reloading 30-06 for almost nothing compared to the cost of lead now.

I dont carry a rifle for my job anymore, but I do/will be carrying a handgun for my job so I go through a lot more pistol anyway.

The time cost of casting and coating really depends on your equipment and methods. If you are ladle pouring into a 2 cavity mold it will take a lot more time than if you are bottom pour pot pouring into a 6 cavity mold and epoxy paint coating instead of powder coating.

The financial cost was low, I shop around for lead, the lead I am using cost me $0.20 a pound before alloying. Most people are paying like a buck fifty a pound these days. I can still get it for a dollar a pound.

I used to PC my cast rounds too, but I no longer do that. Here are some smaller .45acp that I used to cast on a 2 cavity mold and PC....took forever with mixed results



Now I use a 6 cavity mold, a bottom pour pot and a type of epoxy paint and I think it took me around an hour and a half to cast 400-500 180 grain .40S&W and then maybe another 2 hours spread over the next week in 10 min blocks to coat and bake my boolits.

Heres some 230 grain .45ACP I did with my new method.



You are probably right about the time taken to make ladder loads, and to crono, probably doesnt take much extra time, but then in again that is relative? are you reloading with a single stage? what is the rounds per hour capacity of your setup? I dont think you were hassling me by any stretch, I believe you were offering valid, thoughtful advice based on time tested processes. its solid advice, its def what most reloaders should be doing, and if the person in question is a competitor, or someone who is interesting in making custom tooled and tailored rounds then it is an absolute necessity.

There have been times, especially with 45acp where I spent crazy amounts of time pouring over press deflection data, the best type of seating dies to get the perfect seat, the absolute adjustment of my crimp die pouring over the perfect alloying of my lead, hand loading powder to the perfect and same painstakingly worked up powder loads.

My thoughts are that most reloaders fall into one of, or several of the following categories:

1. The long distance shooter: These shooters like to work up their loads right to the edge of pressure tolerances to get maximum range, even on pistol calibers.

2. The precision shooter: These shooters want to build the perfect round for That specific platform. This can get as precise as having separate ammo for multiple handguns with different load data because firearm 1 and firearm 2 seem to perform better with these different loads.

3. The bulk reloader: These shooters are looking to make factory equivalent ammunition for target shooting or plinking. Close to factory is good enough for these guys. These people are looking to recreate factory conditions, or close to them for the absolute cheapest price they can, and as quickly as their equipment will allow them.

4. The Unknown: These are reloaders still developing their knowledge base, or equipment who still dont know exactly which camp they fall into.

I think when it comes to pistol I absolutely fall into camp 3, and for the one rifle caliber I reload probably a blend of camp 2 and camp 3, for the time being I still make my 30-06 on a single stage. With pistol though, I reload on a progressive that I am slowly altering to reload in as much bulk as I can make it, in the smallest amount of time possible, of course within the confines of safety.

Likewise I tend to believe that shooters fall into one of several camps too, all also with their individual merits. I tend to be very functional. I am always going to lean harder on training than any other factor.

[wbunning]

^^ cool stuff! You bring up some good points regarding how much time is really necessary to spend if all you are after is factory White-Box quality. I'm with you on that AFTER I determine what a decent load will be. For example..I recently acquired a new Keith mold for the .44, and I will take considerable pains to convince myself that variation between powders and charges is not due to my own sloppiness. After I figure what load I'll go with, then it's progressive time. I shoot a lot of .44 Special and .44 Russian :-)

If I had to place myself in one of your camps, it would have to be in #3 as well, with the caveat that I try to be very precise with load development. It's part of the fun and satisfaction for me.

I do all my workups on a single stage, as well as magnum loads that I don't have any high volume need for. My higher volume needs, ie blasting and practice ammo are met mainly on the progressive.

Those epoxy coatings are great looking!

I've enjoyed this exchange. Good shootin' to ya.

[Redemption]

^^ cool stuff! You bring up some good points regarding how much time is really necessary to spend if all you are after is factory White-Box quality. I'm with you on that AFTER I determine what a decent load will be. For example..I recently acquired a new Keith mold for the .44, and I will take considerable pains to convince myself that variation between powders and charges is not due to my own sloppiness. After I figure what load I'll go with, then it's progressive time. I shoot a lot of .44 Special and .44 Russian :-)

If I had to place myself in one of your camps, it would have to be in #3 as well, with the caveat that I try to be very precise with load development. It's part of the fun and satisfaction for me.

I do all my workups on a single stage, as well as magnum loads that I don't have any high volume need for. My higher volume needs, ie blasting and practice ammo are met mainly on the progressive.

Those epoxy coatings are great looking!

I've enjoyed this exchange. Good shootin' to ya.

Out of curiosity, what are you using to charge your cases? Something I've noticed on my LnL is that as I make ammunition, the powder in the powder drop likes to compress, you can sort of see it, and what I've discovered since I've moved away from flake powders is that as the powder compresses from the drop being jostled around during the reloading process my metering creeps slowly up, something like that?

I've enjoyed it as well, good and safe shooting to you too.

[wbunning]

Out of curiosity, what are you using to charge your cases? Something I've noticed on my LnL is that as I make ammunition, the powder in the powder drop likes to compress, you can sort of see it, and what I've discovered since I've moved away from flake powders is that as the powder compresses from the drop being jostled around during the reloading process my metering creeps slowly up, something like that?

I've enjoyed it as well, good and safe shooting to you too.

I had issues with the Hornady measure from the get-go. It would charge erratically. I abandoned it. Now, for the s/s I use an RCBS Uniflow. On the LNL AP I use a Lee AutoDisk. I replaced the disk with Lee's micrometer metering chamber. It works much better, but you have to get their PTX dies, which required polishing in my case. The Lee PTX die also doesn't work very well if I need to use more mouth flare for cast bullets. The cases tend to stick in the die. So in that case I use a different expander die, but that means doing the expansion off the LNL since there aren't enough stations as I like to use a powder cop, and seat and crimp in different steps.

So..what I often do now is run my brass through the LNL to size, prime and flare. I can run a lot of brass through very quickly, getting lots of cases done in advance. Then, when it's time to load, I charge, powder cop, seat and crimp on the next pass.

[Redemption]

I had issues with the Hornady measure from the get-go. It would charge erratically. I abandoned it. Now, for the s/s I use an RCBS Uniflow. On the LNL AP I use a Lee AutoDisk. I replaced the disk with Lee's micrometer metering chamber. It works much better, but you have to get their PTX dies, which required polishing in my case. The Lee PTX die also doesn't work very well if I need to use more mouth flare for cast bullets. The cases tend to stick in the die. So in that case I use a different expander die, but that means doing the expansion off the LNL since there aren't enough stations as I like to use a powder cop, and seat and crimp in different steps.

So..what I often do now is run my brass through the LNL to size, prime and flare. I can run a lot of brass through very quickly, getting lots of cases done in advance. Then, when it's time to load, I charge, powder cop, seat and crimp on the next pass.

That is actually a really excellent idea. I mean it requires more bushings etc but Ive been trying to decide what to do when I get my bullet collet and dropping setup all put together. I'll have to buy more quick change bushings but it will save me some hassle and then when I sit down to load it will just be primer, powder bullet and crimp.

My powder drop was unacceptably erratic with flake powders, it's been better with the win231 but I still catch it creeping up on me. I'll get 10 rounds at 4.4 then I'll catch it creeping up to 4.5 , 10 more rounds and it's pushing into 4.6 so I start making micro adjustments and it's back to 4.4, it's kind of a pain so I think eventually I'll swap my powder drop over to something like what your using.

My next day off is casting, I went through like 500 rounds of cast in almost no time at all. Hopefully my free Hornady bullets show up soon lol.