Reloading the 32 S&W Long with plated bullets

[barryen]

I just read through a long thread started by MatCat about this same subject using Rainier 100gn plated bullets. Here is my question: MatCat had the exact same question that I had. The 50th addition of the Lyman manual shows a 100gr Jacket HP having a 1.160 OAL, so that is what I used since it seemed to match the bullet type most closely (not considering the "use lead bullet loading data" advice). I just loaded a bunch of the Rainier bullets using that OAL, but worry they are seated too deep. Mind you my gun is the new Ruger snubby .327 Federal, so I am not overly worried about the gun, but I am still worried some, and especially about the case. I used 2.5 grains of Unique. Used the Lee factory crimping die for a crimp. Oh, I chose this bullet so as to avoid leading of the throat and barrel (trying to make life easy). Could have used more expensive Hornady loads that have a crimp ring but wanted to go cheap. Any further advice from anyone? Am I OK, or should I have seated less deep as if I was using the 98 gn lead bullet?

[ironhorse1]

Your 2.5 grain load of Unique is a very light load. I know that it is listed in the manuals but with a lead bullet not plated.

This may be one case where lead bullet data should not be used for plated.

You may be risking a squib/stuck bullet in the barrel. Unique is not the best powder for really light loads as you will find unburned powder after firing.

I load 3.3-3.5 with the 100 grain cast or even a Hornady JHP.. You are probably wasting your money buying plated when a 100 grain cast Missouri bullet is all that you really need.

The round is very low velocity and leading is a non issue. A better powder is Bullseye where 2.5 grains will burn completely.

So it may be safe to fire your loads as the gun will easily handle the 9,000psi or close to that.

However you need to make sure that each and every bullet exits the barrel.

Now if your load the plated in .32 H&R magnum cases or .32 Federal cases with the correct load data for those rounds then the 100 grain plated bullets are just fine.

I would pull the bullets and increase the charge to 3.5 grains for a complete burn and approximately 800 fps in a short barrel.

irh

[barryen]

ironhorse1, thank you very much for your advice; I need it. I certainly don't want squibs, and I did not know about Unique powder and light loads. I do have some follow-up questions to ask if you don't mind:

1. The current Lyman manual shows a range of 2.5 to 2.8 grains of Unique for a 100gr Jacketed HP with a 1.160" OAL. Your suggestion of using 3.3 - 3.5 is a bit over that. Is that with a longer OAL? I did note that for the 85gn lead bullet that it allows up to 3.5gn of Unique, which would make sense with less seating depth and larger volume there would be less pressure to contend with.

2. Seating depth: I don't quite get why the Lyman book wants to see a large 100gn HP so deep (1.160 OAL), but is ok with seating a 85gn lead bullet to 1.210. Any explanations?

3. Hypothetically, if both lead 100 gn bullets and copper plated 100 gn bullets were to cost the same, would there be any advantages to using the lead bullet?

4. Since I don't have any 100gn JHP bullets to compare to the 100gn Rainier copper plated flat nose, I don't know if they are the same length of bullet. I had guessed that they were of similar length since both had a flat nose and both were 100gn (although one would assume a hollow point of the same weight would have to be longer). I assumed the seating depth to be about the same. So here is the question: If a bullet is seated too deep, then that will increase pressure. What would that likely do to the bullet casing? What kind of harm, if any, would that do to a gun that can also shoot the high pressure 327 federal magnum like mine?

Thanks for your advice!

[noylj]

> Seating depth: I don't quite get why the Lyman book wants to see a large 100gn HP so deep (1.160 OAL), but is ok with seating a 85gn lead bullet to 1.210. Any explanations?

Maybe the folks developing the load wanted all the bullet tension they can get for the JHP
or
maybe they wanted a COL shorter than most reloaders would use so pressures would be a bit lower for the reloaders (SAAMI ammunition testing for the industry calls for shorter than expected COL for test ammo, so testing is conservative)
or
maybe they set COL by the cannelure and that was the COL they got with the cannelure on the bullet.
You can call/write and ask them.

Seating depth? You can go back a few years and NO ONE talked seating depth EXCEPT anal rifle shooters who didn't want the bullet to extend internally past the case neck, as that would limit case volume (though, since they weren't using compressed loads, there was still plenty of case volume) and even they couldn't give you a rational reason for their "concern." This was a very big "thing" with gun writers in the '70s-'80s.
Now, as far as I can tell, the great seating depth issue seems to be that if you know the seating depth, then any bullet of the same weight loaded to the same seating depth should produce very close to the same pressure/velocity.I haven't seen any folks posting data to show this and absolutely no pressure data to prove it, but it "should" be a good rough approximation (again, for the relatively small COL variations used) and probably gets them more than close enough. This is good for action pistol shooting, where power factor trumps accuracy and shooting is more important than sitting at a loading bench.

>If a bullet is seated too deep, then that will increase pressure.
Yes, for straightwall cases of limited internal volume; however, I wonder if you had 5.0gn of Red Dot in a .45-70 case, whether you might actually see pressure go down as COL goes down since the available case volume is so large that the pressure drop due to the extended distance to the barrel's lede (free bore) could be greater than the very small decrease in internal volume. Anyone have a pressure barrel?
>What would that likely do to the bullet casing?
What? increase pressure? Nothing, until pressure is so great that failure occurs. In almost all cases, the CASE is not the pressure limiting entity--the GUN is. A revolver cylinder completely encloses the case. You need a pressure high enough to blow out the case head or web.
>What kind of harm, if any, would that do to a gun that can also shoot the high pressure 327 federal magnum like mine?
It would depend on how much thinner the case web is on the .32 S&W Long compared to the .327 Fed Mag case, but you would be in real trouble if pressure went up more than about 10% OVER .327 Fed Mag pressure, or 10% over 45000 psi (say, up into the 49000 psi region).

You aren't going to stick a bullet with 2.0gn or more of Unique, and NOT in a case THAT small. One of my loads is 1.5gn of True Blue (a powder almost as, if not more, versatile than Unique--it just doesn't have the case-filling fluffiness of Unique)

Now, my comment: if you have all these worries, why wouldn't you start off with a bullet MADE for the cartridge/gun you are loading--with the appropriate crimp groove/cannelure? If safety is making you worry, be safe and get the right bullet to learn with. After you have loaded a few, you can branch out in bullet type/style.
In general, revolvers are best served with bullets that have crimp grooves (lead bullets) or cannelures (jacketed and some plated) as they need a roll crimp.
So, you have no roll crimp (unless you rolled the case mouth into the bullet and damaged the plating) with this plated bullet. Thankfully, you load is so light, it almost certainly doesn't matter.
Recoil, COULD (not likely, but COULD) have the bullet WALK OUT of the case to the point where the bullet extends in front of the cylinder and binds things up (i.e., the COL will get longer for the rounds left in the cylinder after each firing, maybe--but they won't get shorter). This isn't too likely with such a light charge.

COL in a manual: SO WHAT? We reloaded for about 100 years with NO COL listed in any manual and folks learned how to work up the COL on their own—and in all that time, no one had a problem using the START load.
For a revolver, COL is real easy--the bullet can't stick out the cylinder and one should use a roll crimp into the crimp groove/cannelurethe or roll the case over the bullet shoulder or roll the case along the bullet ogive.
I have loaded for over 40 years and NEVER measured a bullet length--it just doesn't matter. First,find the COL that works and then start at the start load and work up. I alway check several sources and start at the lowest start load. Safety is very important and I have no idea who my mix of bullet, lot of powder, case, primer, COL, and chamber compares to ANY manual's mix, so I start low.
Next, COL and pressure: forget all the scare stories you hear. It all started when an article was published about guns (Glocks, I believe) being damaged at the range and forensics showed that this was caused by bullet set-back due to repeatedly chambering the same round over-and-over. Testing then showed that a 35ksi 9mm Luger load would go up to 60+ksi if the bullet was set back in the case 0.25" (1/4"), as was seen in the LEO rounds that were being repeated for weeks/months being re-chambered, driving the bullet deeper—every "night" they would remove the chambered round and put it back in the magazine and every "morning" they would re-chamber the round.

So, just using those numbers and assuming pressure increase is somewhat linear over the small COL range we normally work in, that is about 110 psi per mil of set-back, maybe, at most, in the 9mm Luger.
So, 9mm Luger has a max average pressure of 35000 psi, and +P is 38500 psi. So, if you had a round that produced 35000psi, using a "shorter" COL would have to be a change in COL of about 0.030" to bring it up to +P, which can be fired a few times in almost EVERY 9x19 gun.
Finally, you START at the START load. That was supposedly selected to ensure that any REASONABLE COL is safe and the reloader will work up the load watching for pressure signs. The reloader establishes the COL, not the manual--they don't have YOUR gun, so they know nothing about what COL will work in your gun.
I always check several sources and begin at the lowest starting load I can find.
Finally, if you are still worried, though I expect by now you've gone to the range and found the loads a bit lighter than you might want, but certainly put holes in the target out at 50 yards, you can get a kinetic bullet puller and pull the rounds.

>Lead bullet advantage:
1) ALMOST always more accurate than plated. Plated are not known for accuracy and, like a lead bullet, if they aren't sized to your cylinder's throats and about 0.001" larger than your barrel's groove diameter, will tumble/keyhole quite easily.
2) Lead is cheaper.
3) Coated lead bullets, if the reloader doesn't damage the coating during seating/crimping (just like plated bullets) will NOT lead. Even plated has been known to lead if the plating is damaged and there have been reports of plating coming off the rest of the bullet. Even just a very light tumble lube coating of Lee Liquid Alox will prevent almost all leading with nominally undersized lead bullets.
There should be a BIG BOLD statement at the beginning of every loading manual recommending that beginners do all their loading for about 6 months with quality jacketed bullets ONLY until they learn what they are doing and can then learn about lead and plated bullets. Jacketed are just a LOT easier to work with and get great results.

You buy pure copper "Chore Boy" scrubbing pads, cut off a few strands and wrap around a brass bore brush, and you'll remove any leading in just few swipes. Leading is NOT that hard to clean out of the barrel/forcing cone. Be sure you DON'T get the copper-plated steel pads from China. Use ONLY REAL CHORE BOY--even druggies know the difference.

I have not found Berry's, Rainier, or X-treme plated bullets to produce even close to the accuracy of lead or jacketed bullets. Even high quality plated .45 SWC TMJ (plated) bullets were a disaster in my .45s. 2" groups at 50 yards became 8" to infinity at 50 yards.

[ironhorse1]

It's good to see you back for further discussion of proper loads for your Ruger. While the Lyman manual lists loads for Unique and jacketed bullets none of my manuals show a recommended load for that bullet and powder.

Unique is a powder that works best at a higher loading density. The .32 case is small but that won't completely compensate for the small powder charge and the increased friction of a jacketed or plated bullet. I used to shoot the Hornady 98 grain lead SWC with 3 grains of Unique. I would find several completely unburned powder granules after each cylinder full.

The 1.160" OAL is the length of a loaded round using a Hornady 100 grain XTP bullet seated to the cannelure.

My load recommendation is based on the works of Ken Waters' in his book Pet Loads. His work is much more than a loading manual could ever provide in information useful to reloaders
.
Having a variety of manuals on hand it is very easy to find loads with 100 grain cast bullets and Unique up to 4.0 grains in the long.
Seating depth depends on the bullet style and weight and the length of the cylinder. Loads seated to the crimping groove or over the shoulder can be as long as 1.322". or as short as 0.920" for a HBWC.

The main advantage in lead is a lower overall cost and the ability to use small charges of fast burning powder.
The OAL of the Hornady 100 grain XTP bullet is .568" and the Missouri 100 grain cast bullet is the same.

The deeper that you seat a bullet then more pressure will be generated. At the pressure of the .32 long nothing is going to happen with the case or your Ruger.

Previously I stated that there was 9,000 psi generated. That I believe was actually for the .32 S&W. The long runs at 15,000 and the .327 Federal that your Ruger is chambered for operates at 45,000 psi.

I was more concerned that your small charge of Unique with a plated bullet might stick in your barrel.

Due to the light recoil and the flash at the cylinder gap a stuck bullet would not be noticed. Firing more cartridges behind the stuck bullet would cause a barrel bulge. If you choose to shoot your current load use a fresh target and look to see if there is a hole for each round fired. Increased friction, from a dirty bore, could lead to a stuck bullet after several rounds are fired if the velocity is too low. Also check for unburned powder.

Just one last piece of advice. If you are firing .32 SWL in your gun there will be a carbon ring in your cylinder. That is ok as long as you are only shooting .32 SWL. If you were to start shooting .327 Federal after the longs then the high pressure .327 cases will stick. Check the High Road forum for info on this problem as a follow up to this post. The 45,000 psi of the Federal round exceeds the 35,000 psi of the .357 magnum just to put this in some perspective.

irh

[ironhorse1]

"Good Grief: You aren't going to stick a bullet with 2.0gn or more of Unique."

I disagree with the above statement unless the OP was shooting a fully seated HBWC. Even then Bullseye would be a much better choice of powder.

Even though it is stated to use lead data with plated bullets the copper plating does offer increased friction over a lead cast lubricated bullet.

In Pet loads there is not a single load listed with Unique that is less than three grains with lead bullets.

Speer #14 has a 98 grain hard cast bullet with 2.5 grains of Unique with a velocity of 662 fired from a 3" barrel.

Any jacketed bullet requires more powder to equal the velocity of lead. I believe this also applies to plated bullets as well.

The only bullet I have ever stuck, while testing a powder, was plated.

I hope this helps.

irh

[barryen]

Thanks for all of the replies! Continuing to learn. I am a bit confused about these Rainier plated bullets. They are 32 caliber (.312) with no cannelure/crimp groove. I can't imagine that a 100 grain bullet like this would be used in a 32 ACP, so why no crimp groove? As seated to the Lyman manual depth, they look very much like a Hornday bullet...about the same amount of bullet protruding from the case. They are seated so deep that it does look a little like they may be crimping a little past where the bullet starts to narrow, but not sure about this. I set the normal crimp/seating die to very slightly crimp and then ran them through the Lee factory crimp die.

I may just load and shoot one, and repeat. As to "working up", I can't help but wonder how folks know when they get "there". I would think the best way would be to use a Chrono, but outside of that, I would not know how to know when you went maybe a bit too far.

I initially loaded a bunch of 32H&Rs and .327s using Hornady 85gn hollow points according to the Lyman manual starting loads. I wanted to use the cheep 100 grain plated bullets for the 32 Long's. They were on sale and I got a bunch of them. I would hate to trash them, and like I said, I don't know what other type of weapon they would be used in. No crimp ring usually means Auto, but I would think not in this case. I think maybe since these are plated and not jacketed that they are kind of soft and you can crimp some into the plating/bullet, or as was said above, by crimping just past where the bullet starts to neck down/narrow.

Thanks again for the advice, and I have not yet tried any of my reloads. I will be doing that with some trepidation, but all of my loads should be kind of light at this point. I just purchased a Chronograph so maybe I can have some quantitative numbers to gauge my attempts. I will be very careful about squibs and won't load anymore of those Long's with those bullets until I see what happens with what I did thus far. I was also planning to watch out for bullet movement in the case on rounds in the chamber but not yet shot.

[ironhorse1]

Thanks for all of the replies! They are 32 caliber (.312) with no cannelure/crimp groove. I can't imagine that a 100 grain bullet like this would be used in a 32 ACP, so why no crimp groove?

There are some plated bullets with a slight knurling around the circumference but most have nothing at all.

I set the normal crimp/seating die to very slightly crimp and then ran them through the Lee factory crimp die.

There is no need to run these through the Lee Factory Crimp die. In fact the die may reduce bullet diameter and result in a loose bullet. .32 SWL cases are very thin. Just do a slight crimp into the side of the bullet and call it good.
Check loaded rounds by pushing the bullet nose against the bench to check for movement. If the bullet moves you have lost the case neck tension and will need to start over. You cannot recrimp to resolve this issue.

I may just load and shoot one, and repeat. As to "working up", I can't help but wonder how folks know when they get "there". I would think the best way would be to use a Chrono, but outside of that, I would not know how to know when you went maybe a bit too far.

By doing lots of tests and following reliable loading manual data. It's going to be very hard to mess up with the .32 SWL in a gun chambered for the .327 Now the .327 is an entirely different matter.

I initially loaded a bunch of 32H&Rs and .327s using Hornady 85gn hollow points according to the Lyman manual starting loads. I wanted to use the cheep 100 grain plated bullets for the 32 Long's. They were on sale and I got a bunch of them. I would hate to trash them, and like I said, I don't know what other type of weapon they would be used in. No crimp ring usually means Auto, but I would think not in this case. I think maybe since these are plated and not jacketed that they are kind of soft and you can crimp some into the plating/bullet, or as was said above, by crimping just past where the bullet starts to neck down/narrow.

Plated are supposed to be pure lead so indeed very soft. Nothing wrong with the plated bullets except they are generally less accurate if driven too fast.
At least that is what I have found to be true. They do seem to have a sweet spot in some firearms. They are very clean to load and shoot. When I crimp plated for revolvers I just keep increasing the amount of crimp until I only see one half of the case mouth as observed from the front.

Thanks again for the advice, and I have not yet tried any of my reloads. I will be doing that with some trepidation, but all of my loads should be kind of light at this point. I just purchased a Chronograph so maybe I can have some quantitative numbers to gauge my attempts. I will be very careful about squibs and won't load anymore of those Long's with those bullets until I see what happens with what I did thus far. I was also planning to watch out for bullet movement in the case on rounds in the chamber but not yet shot.

There are very few surprises to be found with the checking of loads for the .32. Except perhaps the low velocities from short barreled revolvers which have variable dimensions in the cylinder,barrel and gap.

Just a FWIW In the .327 cases I load 4.2 grains of Unique with the 100 and even a 115 grain cast bullet for a nice plinking and target load. You can do the same with the plated. The Ruger Single Seven has shown a preference for the 100 grain over the 115 grain so I'm actually shooting the heavier bullet in a S&W 31 with 3.5 grains of Unique.

Since most of the .327 loads listed are very hot if you want a source of data for lesser loads just use .32 H&R magnum data in your .327 cases.

A quick review: Make sure all bullets exit the barrel. Do not shoot .327 after .32 SWL unless you clean the chambers first. All data listed here is from known data sources but if you choose to use them please verify before proceeding.

irh

[barryen]

What great advice and information! It is great that you seasoned reloaders are willing to spend the time to pass down your knowledge to a newbie like myself. I especially appreciate the advice about the Lee Factory Crimp die. Regarding that, so when is it a good idea to use it (the LFC die)?

Also, I experienced the .327 after 32 SWL effect myself, but did not understand the reason why...thanks for the info, makes perfect sense.

[ironhorse1]

QUOTE=barryen;20292420]What great advice and information! It is great that you seasoned reloaders are willing to spend the time to pass down your knowledge to a newbie like myself. I especially appreciate the advice about the Lee Factory Crimp die. Regarding that, so when is it a good idea to use it (the LFC die)?

AFAIK the answer is never. There are many reloaders who swear by the FCD as it makes all their progressively loaded mixed case reloads fit their guns.

The problem is mixed cases and the varied thickness of the brass means that some loaded rounds will be squeezed more than others. The extra squeeze actually reduces bullet diameter resulting in undersized and loose bullets which also may tend to be less than accurate.

I purchased one for the .45 acp years ago. I found it useless and pulled bullets were indeed undersized. When I mentioned to my mentor I bought one his only question was why? He was one of the truly amazing early reloaders and wildcatters back in the forties. Ever hear of the 6mm Rocket?
I was fortunate to have access to such a seasoned loader. I still use many items from his estate. If I can help just one more person his knowledge is never lost. Now I'm the old mentor. Tempus Fugit.
.

Also, I experienced the .327 after 32 SWL effect myself, but did not understand the reason why...thanks for the info, makes perfect sense.[/QUOTE]