Reloading help please

[Bert Gamble]

I loaded my first rounds today and I had some problems. Hopefully I can get some advice on how to fix them.

I loaded 40 rounds of 9mm using a 147gr powder coated lead flat nose over 3.1 gr VV N-320 at 1.135 OAL.

The first problem was that the OAL varied between 1.130 and 1.140, but most were 1.135. I do not understand how there can be that much difference. The ones that were long got run through the seating die again, but it changed nothing.

The second problem was that half of the rounds did not fit perfectly into the case gauge. Oddly enough, OAL had no bearing on whether or not it would fit. I adjusted the crimp die to give a little bit more crimp, and that worked for most, but not all. The few that were a little bit off were set aside to check individually, and when shot, they were the same as the others. Could I be too critical about them fitting perfectly. I have never used a case gauge before. The ones that I think did not fit perfectly did not sit completely flush, but instead could be felt sticking up just a bit. I wonder if the sizing die needs adjustment?

Lastly, and I think I understand what is wrong here but I want confirmation. Very few rounds would cycle in the gun. Had a ton of FTE and a few stove pipes. I am pretty sure that this is because the load was too lite. I was using a chrono and was only getting 750 - 775 FPS for a 110 - 113 power factor. I need to be up around 890 FPS to get to 130 power factor. Afet my reloads, I shot 25 factory loads and they were all perfect.

Is the gr of powder to FPS linear? If so, it should be easy to calculate what load I need. 3.1 gr / 750 FPS = 0.004133333333333333333333333. 0.00413333333333333333333333 * 890 = 3.678 or averaged out to 3.7gr. Does this sound right?


Thanks

[Metal God]

Is the gr of powder to FPS linear?

Short answer is , No not at all but you will at times see trends that appear to be linear . I see this in 308 all the time . My FPS goes up about 40fps every .5gr . How ever when you start getting to max pressure your velocity slows in relation to the pressure going up . You absolutely can have a large pressure spike that does not show as such on the chrono .

The first problem was that the OAL varied between 1.130 and 1.140, but most were 1.135.

No not uncommon at all . The bullet profile and seating stem cone can differ causing the issue . You see this when seating flat nose bullets with a seating stem that is designed for round nose bullets . Added inconsistent coating thickness from bullet to bullet and you're sure to see a COAL variance like that .

I don't have VV load data but 750fps is a tad slow and you likely need a higher charge . You really should not just go with one charge to the range . If it does not work you still need to go back and try another . I recommend you go with multiple loads starting from minimum and working up in increments of a percentage .

So lets say you have a minimum charge of 3.0gr and a max of 4.0gr . My test loads would look something like this

3.0 / 3.2 / 3.4 / 3.6 / 3.7 / 3.8 / 3.9 / 4.0

Loading ten each so if the lower charges don't cycle the firearm you have other charges with you to try to eliminate possible low charge is the issue right then and there . This eliminates the need to pack up and leave only to have to go back out with another load . Also while testing all those loads you will almost always have one that shoots better then the rest , sometimes two loads that will . So now you have one or two loads you can take back out to test a larger number of shots with each to confirm which is better .

[Bert Gamble]

Short answer is , No not at all but you will at times see trends that appear to be linear . I see this in 308 all the time . My FPS goes up about 40fps every .5gr . How ever when you start getting to max pressure your velocity slows in relation to the pressure going up .



No not uncommon at all . The bullet profile and seating stem can differ causing the issue . Added inconsistent coating thickness and you're sure to see a COAL variance like that .

I don't have VV load data but 750fps is a tad slow and you likely need a higher charge . You really should not just go with one charge to the range . If it does not work you still need to go back and try another . I recommend you go with multiple loads starting from minimum and working up in increments of a percentage .

So lets say you have a minimum charge of 3.0gr and a max of 4.0gr . My test loads would look something like this

3.0 / 3.2 / 3.4 / 3.6 / 3.7 / 3.8 / 3.9 / 4.0

Loading ten each so if the lower charges don't cycle the firearm you have other charges with you to try to eliminate possible low charge is the issue right then and there . This eliminates the need to pack up and leave only to have to go back out with another load . Also while testing all those loads you will almost always have one that shoots better then the rest , sometimes two loads that will . So now you have one or two loads you can take back out to test a larger number of shots with each to confirm which is better .

Makes sense. Thanks.

[SixPointEight]

Metal God nailed it.

Work up loads slowly, the relationship is sometimes linear and sometimes not between charge and velocity. It's not safe to assume you can calculate a load for the velocity you want, then load to that charge

[wbunning]

What manual are you using for data reference? That is most definitely a light load, and is likely the cause of your cycling problems. NO... the ratio of grains powder to fps is not linear. You can't calculate it that way. Use published data, and never go below minimum or maximum listed charge.

Re: seating depth: various presses will have play. Progressive presses, like my Hornady LNL are notorious for this. What do you have for a press? Sometimes the seating die itself can be the culprit. That, in part, is why there are such things as precision seating dies. The seaing stem may be the wrong shape for the bullet you are using. If you have a stem for a RN, and use it to seat FN bullets, or vice versa, the rim of the stem might cause some of the variation.
If you are using a single stage, wiggle your shell holder. It has play, right? That play is there to help compensate for any misalignment between the ram and the die body, but also can result in variance in seating depth. Where bullet runout isn't going to be an issue, like with 9mm, you can shim the shell holder and that will help with a more consistent seating depth. As you seat the bullet..seat it once then rotate the case 90 degrees, and re-seat. That might help too. Do the same with your crimp. A couple of thousandths of variation is normal and not a problem.

Re:cases not fitting the gage: could be your resizing die isn't screwed down all the way to the shell holder, could be "glocked brass" ( though that isn't much of an issue anymore). Could also be that your seating die is incorrectly adjusted and the crimp ring is mashing the case, causing it to bulge. Get a Lee Factory Crimp Die and that might help.

[wbunning]

Short answer is , No not at all but you will at times see trends that appear to be linear . I see this in 308 all the time . My FPS goes up about 40fps every .5gr . How ever when you start getting to max pressure your velocity slows in relation to the pressure going up . You absolutely can have a large pressure spike that does not show as such on the chrono .



No not uncommon at all . The bullet profile and seating stem cone can differ causing the issue . You see this when seating flat nose bullets with a seating stem that is designed for round nose bullets . Added inconsistent coating thickness from bullet to bullet and you're sure to see a COAL variance like that .

I don't have VV load data but 750fps is a tad slow and you likely need a higher charge . You really should not just go with one charge to the range . If it does not work you still need to go back and try another . I recommend you go with multiple loads starting from minimum and working up in increments of a percentage .

So lets say you have a minimum charge of 3.0gr and a max of 4.0gr . My test loads would look something like this

3.0 / 3.2 / 3.4 / 3.6 / 3.7 / 3.8 / 3.9 / 4.0

Loading ten each so if the lower charges don't cycle the firearm you have other charges with you to try to eliminate possible low charge is the issue right then and there . This eliminates the need to pack up and leave only to have to go back out with another load . Also while testing all those loads you will almost always have one that shoots better then the rest , sometimes two loads that will . So now you have one or two loads you can take back out to test a larger number of shots with each to confirm which is better .

^^ good info!

[Bert Gamble]

What manual are you using for data reference? That is most definitely a light load, and is likely the cause of your cycling problems. NO... the ratio of grains powder to fps is not linear. You can't calculate it that way. Use published data, and never go below minimum or maximum listed charge.

Re: seating depth: various presses will have play. Progressive presses, like my Hornady LNL are notorious for this. What do you have for a press? Sometimes the seating die itself can be the culprit. That, in part, is why there are such things as precision seating dies. The seaing stem may be the wrong shape for the bullet you are using. If you have a stem for a RN, and use it to seat FN bullets, or vice versa, the rim of the stem might cause some of the variation.
If you are using a single stage, wiggle your shell holder. It has play, right? That play is there to help compensate for any misalignment between the ram and the die body, but also can result in variance in seating depth. Where bullet runout isn't going to be an issue, like with 9mm, you can shim the shell holder and that will help with a more consistent seating depth. As you seat the bullet..seat it once then rotate the case 90 degrees, and re-seat. That might help too. Do the same with your crimp. A couple of thousandths of variation is normal and not a problem.

Re:cases not fitting the gage: could be your resizing die isn't screwed down all the way to the shell holder, could be "glocked brass" ( though that isn't much of an issue anymore). Could also be that your seating die is incorrectly adjusted and the crimp ring is mashing the case, causing it to bulge. Get a Lee Factory Crimp Die and that might help.

I am using a Dillon 650XL press with all dillon dies. I tried to use a Lee factory crimp die, but it is not long enough.

I went to the VV site and used the Lymans and Hornaday manuals. I noticed that the manual's starting loads were higher than the websites max loads on the bullet weights that were available, but I could not find the specific data I needed, so I did an internet search for what others were using and came up with the 3.1 VV N-320 at 1.135 OAL.

[wbunning]

I am using a Dillon 650XL press with all dillon dies. I tried to use a Lee factory crimp die, but it is not long enough.

I went to the VV site and used the Lymans and Hornaday manuals. I noticed that the manual's starting loads were higher than the websites max loads on the bullet weights that were available, but I could not find the specific data I needed, so I did an internet search for what others were using and came up with the 3.1 VV N-320 at 1.135 OAL.

Well, that was a reasonable start. Failures are bound to happen when working up a new load. Metal God's run-down on a ladder load method works, but always expect to have to pull a few bullets with a new load.

Regarding the seating depth.. the shell plates on the progressives are big, and they flex. They flex less when the plate is full and pressure is better distributed, so the first few and last few through are likely to demonstrate more variance. I'm inclined to believe that part of your problem though, may lie with using a round-nose seating stem to seat those flat-nose pc bullets. Does that Dillon die have a RN stem in it? The bottom circumference of such a stem can give a bad fit on flat noses, contacting other than right on the nose and result in varying depth of seating. You could try several things: one, see if you can get a seating stem designed for flat nose. I don't know much about Dillon dies, but a flat nose stem for .357 might fit in your 9mm die if a 9mm specific one isn't available. I don't know if Dillon makes one. RCBS will make you a custom one for their dies. Two: if you have access to a lathe, you can mill the end of your seating plug flat.

Beyond that, don't worry too much about your seating depth. Try measuring a box of Winchester WhiteBox, and you'll feel real good about your results :-)

[Metal God]

Thanks , that method does work and yes you will at times need to pull bullets . My reason is that I don't get to the higher charges for one reason or another . The two most common reasons are

1) I find an accurate load at the lower charge range and when loading handgun that's all I'm looking for most of the time so there's no reason to waist components shooting the higher charges . Although there are times when you are look for terminal ballistics . In that case I'll load hotter loads and except "slightly" less accuracy .

2) I reach max pressure/pressure signs before I get to my max charges I loaded . I come across this more when loading rifle then I do loading handgun . I in fact have 10 or so rounds I need to pull from my last time out . I just make sure those rounds are clearly marked as needing to be pulled and for what reason . In this specific case I had two potential 308 loads that would work for my application . So I went back out with 20rds each to test which would be better . I shot one 5rd group at 100yds with each load and one ten round group at 300yds with each load . They both shot pretty good at 100yds with both being sub moa - .6 and .8 . How ever the 300yd groups really showed the difference with one being 1.1 moa and the other being 1.6 or 3" group and 5" group . Both times one of the loads did worst then the other leaving 5rds left over . Rather then shoot them which I could have I chose to bring them home and pull them . For me and my abilities a 300yd 10 shot group right at moa is pretty good .

When you start getting more experience in reloading as a whole and the specific components you use . You will pull less and less bullets because you get a better understanding where you likely can or can not go with charges based on many factors that your experience hopefully has taught you .

[Bert Gamble]

Thank you for the information. The Dillon die has an insert that can be flipped for flat nose bullets, so I did that and it made the seating problem worse. The bullets go in so cock-eyed that there is no getting them in the case gauge.

I am going to give up on the 147 gr bullets and start working up loads for the 135 gr LRN. I seated a couple of those as dummies and they drop in the case gauge perfectly. Unfortunately there is no load data for these on the VV site either, so I will use the Metal God method to get the load right.

[kcheung2]

135 grains for 9mm? Are you sure that's not for a 38/357?

[Bert Gamble]

135 grains for 9mm? Are you sure that's not for a 38/357?

Positive. It is a coated LRN from Bayou Bullets.

[robert101]

I loaded some over the weekend and pulled 100 or so at the range just this afternoon. It was 45 Automatic and I just shoot mine regardless of a little charge here or there being off. None over loaded mind you as I stay within the published data 99.9% of the time.

As a rule, I always test my reloaded rounds in the gun chamber at the bench. The gauge is good but the real test is the barrel they will be fired in. Plunk them and reduce your bullet pulling by 90%.

[divingin]

The gauge is good but the real test is the barrel they will be fired in. Plunk them and reduce your bullet pulling by 90%.

Yeah, but the gauge precludes the need to disassemble your pistol every time you reload.

OP, a very slight failure to fit in a gauge should not be a concern. The gauge should be tighter than your chamber.

As to a lot of your loads not fitting, try and see exactly what it is that hangs them up. Take a sharpie and color the loaded round, then work it into the gauge until you can see where the ink gets rubbed off. I'll hazard a guess and say you're not quite crimping enough, which will show a brass colored line at the case mouth. Insufficient sizing will show up on the case body. OAL should not affect the gauging of the round (bullet should not hit any part of the gauge.) Bulging from non-axial bullet seating should be obvious on an eyeball type inspection.

Figure out where your problem is first, then correct that step.

Good Luck!

[Metal God]

You should always plunk test your ammo or at minimum plunk the rounds that stick in the gage so you know how much a case can fail the gauge and still plunk in your chamber .