Powder stabilization question...

[Bill Steele]

I have powder I bought in the early 1960's which is still good and I load and shoot without a problem. I also have pull-down powders that are from WWII had I use without problems.
I have primers from the early 1960's which have all worked as they should. Ever seen/used a #157 shotshell primer? I also have large pistol and rifle primers as well as small rifle primers for the 1960's.
I have loaded ammo which shoots fine from 1938.
Black powder I would be more concerned about. Mine from the 1980's has clumped and I am a bit concerned about using/moving it.

You will be good with powder you buy for as long as you live most likely.

I agree.

I think less ambient humidity is better than more though. If you have a fair amount of humidity year round, maybe storing in a climate controlled space will help.

[slamfire1]

I wrote a significant amount of the material in the thread that Metal God referenced.

I was told by an Insensitive Munitions expert that humidity in the air "wicks" nitroglycerine to the surface of double based propellants. Water is a polar molecule, as a vapor in the air it lands on the propellant grain and then evaporates off, pulling nitroglycerine to the surface. In time this causes the surface of a double based powder to be nitroglycerine rich. This will spike the burn rate, might blow up your firearm. Nitroglycerine is in gunpowder to add energy, but single based powders do everything I need, at the velocities I want, so I don't need the boost. Also, given that single based powders should have twice the shelf life of double based, I prefer to buy single based.

The basic problem with buying gunpowder for the long haul is that the lifetime of the stuff is unpredictable.

Army Not Producing Enough Ammunition

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2003/May/Pages/Army_Not3866.aspx

Regardless of what the Army decides to do with its industrial base, the fundamental issue does not change: the Army needs to produce more war reserve ammunition, Naughton said. Time is running out, he said. “Most of the ammunition in the stockpile today was built 20 years ago during the Cold War buildup.” Most rounds are designed to have a shelf life of 20 years. “We are outside the envelope of the shelf life on 40 percent or more of our existing ammunition. The rest is rapidly approaching the end of its shelf life.”

Ammunition does not “go bad” overnight, after it reaches a certain age, but “once it’s over 20 years old, the reliability rapidly degrades,” said Naughton. Within a few years, it will become increasingly difficult to shoot it. “You can predict that you’ll lose 7-8 percent of the ammo after the 20-year mark.”*

To replace the obsolete rounds, the Army would have to produce 100,000 tons of war reserve ammunition a year for the next seven years. Past that point, it would need 50,000 tons to 60,000 tons a year to sustain the stockpile. That represents about “half the level of the Cold War buildup,” he said.

* I think what is meant, 7-8 percent per year after 20 years.

First World Armies pay Ammunition Specialists to go through their inventory, inspect the stuff, if the stock appears suspect, the propellant is tested for the amount of stabilizer.

Ammunition Surveillance Procedures SB 742-1

https://acc.dau.mil/adl/en-US/238111/file/68728/SB%20742-1%20AIN47-13A.pdf

Chapter 13 Propellant and Propelling Charges ,
page 13-1

WARNING
Nitrocellulose-based propellant can become thermally unstable as the age. The normal aging process of the propellants involves deterioration of the nitrocellulose with an accompanying generation of heat. At some point, the propellant may reach a state where heat is generated faster than it can be dissipated. The accumulation of heat can lead to combustion (autoignition). Chemical stabilizers are added to propellants to slow the aging process. In time, the stabilizer levels will drop to a point where the remaining effective stabilizer (RES) is not sufficient to prevent an accelerating rate of decomposition. When this point is reached, the propellant may autoigniet, with possible catastrophic results to property and life. Monitoring the stability level of each propellant lot is essential for continued safe storage.

Page 13-5 , Table 13.2 Propellant Stability Codes
.
Stability Category A 0.30 or more Percent Effective Stabilizer
Acceptable stabilizer loss: safe for continued storage

C 0.29-0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer
Significant stabilizer loss. Lot does not represent an immediate hazard, but is approaching a potentially hazardous stability condition. Loss of stabilizer does adversely affect function in an uploaded configuration. Disposition instructions will be furnished by NAR. All stability category “C” assests on the installation must be reported in writing…
One year after becoming stability category “C” a sample of the bulk propellant lot or the bulk-packed component lot will be retested. If the lot has not deteriorated to category “D”, it will be retested each year until it has been expended, or it has deteriorated to category “D”, at which point it will be demilitarized within 60 days.

D Less than 0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer
Unacceptable stabilizer loss. Lots identified as stability category “D” present a potential safety hazard and are unsafe for continued storage as bulk, bulk-packed components , or as separate loading propellant chargers. Bulk propellant, bulk –packed components and separate loading propelling charges will be demilitarized within 60 days after notification of category “D” status.

We home users cannot afford a $250,000 piece of test equipment to chemically analyze stabilizer in our gunpowder. But, if you want one, here is a lead:

TNO Dutch brochure on “The delicate matter of lifetime”

https://www.tno.nl/media/2756/def_lucht_levensduur_em4200716173.pdf

I recommend storing ammunition and gunpowder in a cool, dry place. Make it a plan not to let gunpowder get over 20 years old, shoot up the old stuff first. Sniff your gunpowder regularly, say, once a year. If it smells like nitric acid gas, (horrible, bitter, will knock you across the room), get rid of it before it autocombusts.

[Bill Steele]

I love to read up on all this stuff as I find it interesting. If I was seriously concerned about storage life for a specific powder, I would call the company that produced it and ask them.

I was recently reading the Hodgdon website for something else I was looking for and ran across a statement to the effect that modern smokeless powders will last indefinitely if stored in a cool dry place. Looks like the wine in the cellar has to go...

[bazineta]

I am in the Holiday Inn Express cohort here, but I could swear that I remember reading that some powders, even until recently, were actually still surplus WWII production. The powder used in the 16 inch guns on the Iowa in 1989 was said to be WWII production, or, at the latest, early 1950s, and it had been in depot storage for most of its life. Now, clearly, that didn't end well, but still, that's some shelf life.

[slamfire1]

I am in the Holiday Inn Express cohort here, but I could swear that I remember reading that some powders, even until recently, were actually still surplus WWII production. The powder used in the 16 inch guns on the Iowa in 1989 was said to be WWII production, or, at the latest, early 1950s, and it had been in depot storage for most of its life. Now, clearly, that didn't end well, but still, that's some shelf life.

I have only read what is on the web. However I remember reading that the 16 inch propellant was stored on barges which got very hot. Then, according to accounts, the stuff being used in the Iowa was actually fuming as it was being rammed.

Old gunpowder, like Dynamite, gets sensitive with age. Old ordnance is dangerous as hell and if usually blown up in place. Except at one facility where I was at. This facility found a very old bomb and did not explode it in place because they did not know if it was filled with a nerve agent!

I was recently reading the Hodgdon website for something else I was looking for and ran across a statement to the effect that modern smokeless powders will last indefinitely if stored in a cool dry place. Looks like the wine in the cellar has to go...

I have no idea what you were reading, whether you actually read that, or believed you read that gunpowder is immortal. It is not. Some people have a background in chemistry and physics and they ought to understand that gunpowder is a high energy compound breaking down to a low energy compound. Once you get that concept in your mind all the contradictions go away.

This is what Federal says about the lifetime of their ammunition:

Federal Ammunition :

http://www.federalpremium.com/company/faq.aspx

What is the shelf life of ammo and storage?

Store reloading components and ammunition in a cool, dry place, protected from direct exposure to sunlight. If stored properly there is a 10-year shelf life on loaded ammunition.

Confirmation bias is such that people who want to believe that gunpowder is immortal won't remember, in fact, won't recognize the importance of product recall information, because it conflicts with their biases. But recently this notice has been in all gun magazines and for a number of months. IMR 4007 was introduced to the market in 2007 and yet, less than 8 years later, some of it is autocombusting.

http://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/9/2/product-recall-notice-imr-4007-ssc-powder/

by SSUSA Staff - Wednesday, September 2, 2015
Product Recall Notice: IMR 4007 SSC Powder

IMR Legendary Powders has announced a product safety warning and recall notice for IMR 4007 SSC on the six lot numbers listed below. Find your lot number on the side of your bottle as in the below photo.
•10130139
•10131139
•10429139
•10430139
•80425139
•80426139

IMR has received reports that this particular powder in 1 lb. and 8 lb. containers may have become unstable due to possible rapid deterioration. Use of this product from these lot numbers shown on the enclosed label may result in spontaneous combustion, fire damage or possible serious injury. IMR suggests that anyone who has this product should cease using it immediately! Fill the powder container with water which will render the product inert and safe for disposal.

Contact IMR directly for more information:

IMR Powder Company, 6430 Vista Drive, Shawnee, KS 66218, email help@imrpowder.com, imrpowder.com, call 1-800-622-4366 or 913-362-9455 and fax 913-362-1307.

[Bill Steele]

...I have no idea what you were reading, whether you actually read that, or believed you read that gunpowder is immortal. It is not. Some people have a background in chemistry and physics and they ought to understand that gunpowder is a high energy compound breaking down to a low energy compound. Once you get that concept in your mind all the contradictions go away.

Oh shoot, now I am going to have to spend a bunch of time going and finding it. It won't be easy because I saw it while I was looking for something else.

For such a self professed scientific guy you seem pretty imprecise in your choice of words, I didn't say powder was immortal. I said a powder manufacturer's site I was reading said modern powder with their stabilizers if stored properly (I think it said cool dry place, but that might be my confirmation bias showing, they may have only said properly) will last indefinitely.

As someone who has no technical training whatsoever in the field, but has had a LOT of people with extensive technical training working for me, one thing I did learn is the more pedantic a person with technical training seems, the more you have to cross check what they say. The term "too smart for his own good" was coined for that very person.

Again, it seems pretty simple to me, if in doubt, just call the powder manufacturer who has the real data. Or, you can just follow the advice of the most pedantic guy on the thread.. Whatever.

[slamfire1]

For such a self professed scientific guy you seem pretty imprecise in your choice of words, I didn't say powder was immortal. I said a powder manufacturer's site I was reading said modern powder with their stabilizers if stored properly (I think it said cool dry place, but that might be my confirmation bias showing, they may have only said properly) will last indefinitely.

Words cause us all sorts of issues. A definition of indefinite is not definite; without fixed or specified limit; unlimited: I don't know if gunpowder will last forever if stored in Arctic conditions, which would be the coolest and driest natural conditions on earth, and you did not qualify your statement just under what cool and dry conditions are required for an indefinite storage. Norway seems very cool compared to the US and yet if you examine the 1978 document An Examination of Deterioration of Ammunition by Storage http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=get...fier=ADA055897 you will see that even in conditions where the temperatures never rise about 9 C, munitions deteriorate.

Now, if the word you read was indeterminate, than the statement was correct because the lifetime of gunpowder is indeterminate:

1. not determinate; not precisely fixed in extent; uncertain.
2. not clear; vague.
3. not established.
4. not settled or decided.

This is what Hodgdon says about gunpowder stability:

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/safety/gunpowder-stability

Gunpowder Stability

The following information is provided as an introduction on the stability, storage, and safe handling of modern smokeless propellant.

Smokeless Propellant

The main ingredient of smokeless propellant, comprising from about 55% to 90% of the composition, is nitrocellulose. The process of creating nitrocellulose leaves remnant acid in the material. This acid immediately starts decomposing the finished product. Left alone the decomposition will reach the stage where the propellant becomes unstable and self-ignites. This process resulted in massive explosions at U.S. Government arsenals after World War I.

To increase the life of the smokeless propellant, a stabilizing chemical is used. This “stabilizer” reacts with the acid to slow down the decomposition process. However, as the stabilizer reacts with the acid it is consumed. After the stabilizer is totally consumed, the propellant is no longer protected from the internal acid.

The entire stabilizer / decomposition process is a time and temperature function – the higher the temperature, the shorter the safe life of the powder. Even moderate temperature, over extended time, leads to propellant decomposition. As a rule of thumb, any temperature over that which is comfortable to a person is accelerating the decomposition of smokeless propellants.

Under proper storage, modern smokeless powder can last for decades. However, this does not mean the reloader can ignore how the powder is stored, particularly if in an uncontrolled environment such as a garage or storage building.

Since I don't know the exact statement you read, and until you produce it, I am going to surmise that you read something into it that was not there. In other words, saw what you wanted to see.

Maybe I did too.

[Bill Steele]

Words cause us all sorts of issues. A definition of indefinite is not definite; without fixed or specified limit; unlimited: I don't know if gunpowder will last forever if stored in Arctic conditions, which would be the coolest and driest natural conditions on earth, and you did not qualify your statement just under what cool and dry conditions are required for an indefinite storage. Norway seems very cool compared to the US and yet if you examine the 1978 document An Examination of Deterioration of Ammunition by Storage http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=get...fier=ADA055897 you will see that even in conditions where the temperatures never rise about 9 C, munitions deteriorate.

Now, if the word you read was indeterminate, than the statement was correct because the lifetime of gunpowder is indeterminate:

1. not determinate; not precisely fixed in extent; uncertain.
2. not clear; vague.
3. not established.
4. not settled or decided.

This is what Hodgdon says about gunpowder stability:

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/safety/gunpowder-stability

Since I don't know the exact statement you read, and until you produce it, I am going to surmise that you read something into it that was not there. In other words, saw what you wanted to see.

Maybe I did too.

Well, here again, we get stuck on words, as I said, they said, "indefinitely" which I think implies a lot different meaning than "indefinite". That is, an indefinite amount of time seems a lot different than, indefinitely. I hope you didn't spend a lot of time looking that up and formatting it all and stuff.

On your point that I did not qualify what cool and dry meant, that would be kind of impossible as I was just relaying what I had read, which was "cool and dry". I think I am on pretty safe ground here as almost every bottle of powder I own includes that maddeningly imprecise "cool and dry" when referring to proper storage.

In the end, the fact remains, a call to the powder manufacturer will likely yield enough facts for a anyone to develop a long range plan for powder availability. Far better than anything any internet pundit might suggest, regardless of their conviction level.

For me, powder longevity is pretty down on my list. As an old guy staring at a perfectly useable 50+ y/o bottle of 2400. My only conclusion is most of my powder that I don't get to shoot is going to outlast me, indefinite is a lot more applicable to me, than my powder.

But I am still looking, I will admit not very diligently, but I will persist.

[Noonanda]

Didnt stay at a Holiday inn, but can speak from experience that in Iraq in 2006 we had 1944 -46 dated .50 cal API/APIT, and around 2008/2009 We were firing Vietnam era 81mm WP rounds (IIRC 1968 dated) with the tea bag powder increments. All worked as it was supposed to. Oldest ammo I have ever shot was some 1938 Greek 8mm ammo. I still have a small amount of it, it shoots like a champ.