Reloading 38spcl

[Bastard]

I am too tired to take word this right or explain it but with wadcutters especially - take the expander die out of whatever die set you buy/use, throw it away & buy yourself the Lyman M die

[acoop101]

OK.
First start with wadcutter brass. It's different from usual .38 Spl Brass. You'll want it if you intend on using a taper crimp, which will prolong the life of your brass in addition to accepting the taper crimp better. If you don't have wadcutter brass, use 158 gr LSWC and a roll crimp OR make sure your 148 gr WCs have a groove for roll crimping.
The 2.7 grains of Bullseye thats been suggested is a classic .38 Spl WC target load---always consult a manual first. Both Alliant and Hogdgon have on-line manuals so pick your powder supplier and see what they suggest.
Since you're loading Speers, you may also want to invest in the Speer manual you can't have too many reloading manuals!
Good Luck!

It may have been different at one time but I bought a couple of boxes of "match" wad cutter ammo and sectioned a couple of cases and it was no different.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

[9mmepiphany]

I am too tired to take word this right or explain it but with wadcutters especially - take the expander die out of whatever die set you buy/use, throw it away & buy yourself the Lyman M die

It took me a while to learn this, but it is really good advice.

The Lyman M-die is a priceless addition

[Green66]

Thanks all for the advice and help,I will be ordering a lyman manual soon and putting the wadcutters away,Thanks Again.

[ironhorse1]

It took me a while to learn this, but it is really good advice.

The Lyman M-die is a priceless addition

Explain to me and others why I need an M die for .38 Special wadcutters.

Never had one, never used one,never had an issue.

The expander bell die is there for a reason.

The only use that I may have for an M die is loading cast bullets in rifle cases.

I just use a small socket, from a socket set, to open the mouth if bullets won't start in rifle cases.

I just got to know what I have missed. Thanks for explaining.

irh

[hambam105]

Ironhorse1,

I plan on taking my reloading experience to the next level. And after 30 years of reloading 38 Specials I can't recall ever paying attention to the difference between a M die and an expander ball.

However, recently I've spoken with more wiser reloaders than me, not really to hard to find, and they told me that using the correct die flaring instrument should improve my reloads.

Since, circa, 1984, my 38 Special 148 grain HBWC reloads have been quite capable of holding the 9 ring on an official NRA B-27 Target at 50 yards. I know because I put them there at PPC shooting events many times since. Again, I too paid little attention to the importance of M dies verses expander balls.

As this relates to the OP:
Don't go cheap if you want to reload accurate 38 Specials.
As for your powder question, Bullseye and Winchester 231 powder has been reloaded in .38 reloads that set many shooting records.
And as for the manuals, Speer put out some great & very informative reloading manuals circa 1975 to the late 1980s. The information has not changed, but the price of the manuals have. I've seen plenty of these mentioned manuals sell 2nd hand at almost every gun show I've been to for 5 bucks or less. Keep your eyes open at you local family owned gun shops. Sadly these highly informative reference books are relegated to the junk box.

[ironhorse1]

A simple experiment

I am too tired to take word this right or explain it but with wadcutters especially - take the expander die out of whatever die set you buy/use, throw it away & buy yourself the Lyman M die

My objection is to the statement in this quote to just throw the expander die away.

Some new reloader is going to read this and probably do just, that without question, because he read it on the internet.

These dies have been GTG for decades and have reloaded millions of rounds of ammunition.

As an experiment, I just took some .38 Special brass cases and ran them through a process to take measurements of the final results.

Fired cases measure .378" Resized cases .373" using a carbide RCBS sizer.

RCBS expander die body measures .355".

Expanded and belled cases measure .352" on the inside.

Cases just belled measure .350" on the inside.

A 148 grain Speer HBWC was seated almost flush. Final measurement of both cases at the bullet were .375".

A bit of difference perhaps in bullet tension due to not using the expander.

However some cases are thicker and .38 dies are used to reload .357 as well.

It may sometimes be harder to seat a bullet in a case that has not been expanded. Crushing cases is a real possibility if to much force is applied.

After trying this experiment I'll be happy to keep my dies just as they came from the factory and load as I always have loaded.

Thank you for peaking my interest in doing something different.

All I have said above is true. After all, you are reading this, on the web.

irh

[9mmepiphany]

Never had one, never used one,never had an issue.

The expander bell die is there for a reason.

I just got to know what I have missed.

Some new reloader is going to read this and probably do just, that without question, because he read it on the internet.

There is nothing wrong with the Expander die in most sets and they do what they are designed to do.

The recommendation to use a Lyman M-die really is for the newer loader...especially for a loader using a progressive press who might be having issues with crushing cases, shaving lead/plating, having bullets fall over, or having their finger pinched between the case and the mouth of the die.

Most expansion dies flare/bell the mouth of the case to accept the bullet and to hold it in place while being carried into the Seating die. But a flared case mouth allows the bullet to tip out of alignment. Combined with the variations of handgun cases, which aren't usually trimmed to length, this can cause the bullet to fall over/off.

The two most common solutions to this are to increase expansion of the case mouth or hold the bullet in place, with your fingers, until it enters the Seating die. I don't believe either of those are optimal.

The Lyman M-die expands the case body but leaves the mouth of the case parallel with the sides...in essence forming a "seat" to receive the base of the bullet. This contour allows the bullet to be held firmly in place as it travels to (progressive press) and enters the Seating die. It works especially well when a progressive press is utilizing a Bullet Feeder to drop bullets onto the passing case

I believe that this is a superior solution and it seems that RCBS and Redding believe this also, as they are now manufacturing the inserts in their Expander dies following the Lyman M-die contour

[eaglemike]

As noted above, 2.7 gr BE is THE classic 148 WC load in .38 Special. These were used for target and training, out to 50 yards. Soft shooting, and very accurate.

If you can find a source for double-end wad cutters, this would be a super easy way to go. There is a groove for a nice roll crimp. You don't need to pay attention to which end goes into the case. Hensley and Gibbs design was the standard for a long time......

Military cases for .38spcl had tapered case walls - these did bulge when a 148 was fully seated, but would still chamber in most guns, worked fine without issue. I've never had a problem with commercial cases loading 148's, but I have not tried every possible .38spcl case.

Universal is a little slow for this setup (IMO).........

[hambam105]

Believe it or not:

There is a group of Bench Rest shooters competing with 38 Specials. Benchrest is not for me, but I do talk with these men about reloading 38s. And for these guys it's all about accuracy and accuracy starts with the right reloading equipment. And this M die stuff is my beginning point.

I'd say that with this new illegal pistol magazine restriction fiasco, .38 Special shooting should return thereby substantially increasing the demand for .38 Special cases new & used. So buy your 38 Special dies & brass now.

[hambam105]

Two point seven grains of Bullseye for a hollow base wad cutter for sure. That has been true since, what, the 1950s. As for a solid base...you need a little more.

One hundred and forty-eight grain or 158 grain solid base cast or FMJ bullets going 800 to 900 FPS from a 38 Special maintains one-gallon milk bottle of angle groups at 50 yards day in and day out. Start using plated bullets and you won't be happy with 50 yard accuracy. Heck, I'm not happy with the accuracy of plated bullets at 7 yards at any speed.

[eaglemike]

We sold hundreds, maybe thousands, or Star reloading machines set up with a 2.7 gr BE slide set up for the H&G DEWC. The powder slides were not adjustable, like the current Dillon and many others are now. This was before Dillon was even selling reloaders....

Bullet quality is important. Some of the swaged stuff MUST be driven slow, or you will end up with an unpleasant cleaning job, getting the lead out of your barrel.

If they are not name brand bullets, look to be sure lube is consistent, and size is .358. Once in a while I see someone selling .237 lead for a .38/.357 revolver, and it's cringe-worthy.

When I was shooting the DEWC, I used this load. It always held as close as I could. I had a red dot sighted 686 I put a custom barrel on, it would hold the 10 ring at 50 yards. Maybe closer than that, but it was a good day for me. (many years ago )

[Bill Steele]

Two point seven grains of Bullseye for a hollow base wad cutter for sure. That has been true since, what, the 1950s. As for a solid base...you need a little more.

One hundred and forty-eight grain or 158 grain solid base cast or FMJ bullets going 800 to 900 FPS from a 38 Special maintains one-gallon milk bottle of angle groups at 50 yards day in and day out. Start using plated bullets and you won't be happy with 50 yard accuracy. Heck, I'm not happy with the accuracy of plated bullets at 7 yards at any speed.

You know, I hate to admit it but I feel the same way.

I just won't buy plated anymore. I tried and tried to like them and tried and tried lots of different loads in lots of different calibers and ended up finally giving up. I have a lot of them to shoot up before I am actually done. But mentally I am done now. I only use them for garbage time.

For me going forward, it is lead or jacketed. That's it.

[hambam105]

The people that make plated bullets have been making great cast bullets for years.
I hate to bad-mouth plated bullets because it's a great revenue source for the bullet makers who are working hard and keeping 99.9% of the plated bullet customers happy.
I suppose there isn't too many old guys like me still shooting .38 Special.

[Bill Steele]

That is why I hate to admit it, I want all these guys to do well. For many, they serve a purpose well, just not for me.