So once again..

[dwalker]

I had a near kaboom during a match. Same deal, pull trigger, lack of recoil, bullet lodge in the barrel. Stopped, told the RO what was going on, went to safe area and removed stuck projectile.
Bullet AGAIN shows unburned powder/soot on the base of the bullet. A fellow shooter who works for an ammo company checked it out and confirmed unburned powder, speculated that the issue could be contaminated powder, media "clump" in the case, or weak primer.
This specific load was 4.8gr CFEPistol, Winchester SPP, Extreme 124gr Target HP.

My process is:
Sort cases, tumble only 9mm cases, no .40 or .45 or rifle cases.
Dry tumble
separate media ( I uses a Franklin gadget that looks like a hamster ball over a 5gal bucket)
If i use the classic turret:
deprime on my SS press using a RCBS die
Hand prime (winchester or Federal SPP)
put in turret press
expand using RCBS expander
Charge using Lee pistol charge die, Lee Auto disk powder thrower w/ vernier adj charge bar instead of disk.
Seat pullet using RCBS seater
Crimp with Lee FCD

On the Pro1K:
Fill case feeder, fill primer tray (Federal SPP only) fill powder thrower. I use the Lee Auto Disk with the autodisk at 4.8gr.
Run the press.

I am stumped as to wtf is going on. The case clearly has powder but it is also clearly not burning completely. I dry tumble with Lymans treated walnut media with Flitz media additive. Never had any issue with media clumping or sticking to cases before, but i suppose it is possible. I do not use caselube for pistol cases at all.
The one thing I can think of with the primers is the Winchester SPP are the last of some I have had for a while, I suppose it is possible some are just no good. Also when I tried the Winchester SPP in the Pro1K they did not feed properly and I had several that had a weird look to them after seated. I stopped using them and went back to Federals.

Open to any input. Honestly if I had just not charged the case properly I could deal with that as it means I made a mistake and need to be a little more careful, but the unburned powder thing is driving me crazy because I cannot nail down a cause.

[ironhorse1]

Do you have taper crimp die?

I would suggest that you check a few loaded rounds for loose bullets.

Press the nose of the bullet against your bench and see if it moves easily.

Using a FCD resizes the case and bullet. This means that the bullet is now undersize and possibly loose in the case. No tension, no pressure, no burning of the powder as the primer pushes the bullet out of the case.

Switch to a taper crimp die and bench the FCD.

Everything else about your process appears to be ok.

irh

[bfoosh006]

Make sure the primer is fully seated.... maybe you are getting a "light" primer strike ( if the primers aren't fully seated your firing pin could be using its " energy " to seat as well. )

And I would suggest you stop using Lymans Treated media... numerous issues with it... probably made worse ( no offense ) by adding Flitz.

You might be getting a goopy clump of media, in the bottom of the case.... especially if you do not run the media for numerous minutes to allow the Flitz to fully disperse.

[bsumoba]

Maybe media in flash hole, causing poor ignition?

[ironhorse1]

If the bench test is inconclusive try your impact hammer. You do have one right?
If the bullet releases in one hit then it is loose. After you try that check the bullet diameter with calipers. I would bet that the reading will be less than .355"-.356" required.

irh

This same problem occurs in revolver loads and it is due to recoil forces causing bullets in the next chamber to jump the crimp.

When this happens the now loose bullet is pushed out by the primer charge and the unburned powder ends up in the cylinder and barrel.

Nothing new here it is just the fact that a .001" or more does matter in the nanosecond it takes for a cartridge to fire. Maybe a millisecond but a very short window for everything to work together.

[dwalker]

If the bench test is inconclusive try your impact hammer. You do have one right?
If the bullet releases in one hit then it is loose. After you try that check the bullet diameter with calipers. I would bet that the reading will be less than .355"-.356" required.

irh

I broke down a few using my impact puller and it took a few good hits to unseat them, and you cannot push them in on the edge of the desk. Bullet dia measures .356/.355.

That does not mean that one or more cases were not loose, just that none I have checked are loose.

I went to the FCD after having chambering issues because of the expanding die, it just more or less full length resizes the loaded round and while its not overcrimped (which most people agree is bad for plated bullets) it is definitely not a "heavy" crimp. I could play around with this more and maybe move back to the standard taper crimp.

[dwalker]

Make sure the primer is fully seated.... maybe you are getting a "light" primer strike ( if the primers aren't fully seated your firing pin could be using its " energy " to seat as well. )

And I would suggest you stop using Lymans Treated media... numerous issues with it... probably made worse ( no offense ) by adding Flitz.

You might be getting a goopy clump of media, in the bottom of the case.... especially if you do not run the media for numerous minutes to allow the Flitz to fully disperse.

Maybe media in flash hole, causing poor ignition?

While this has never been an issue, I am definitely going to look into this. I guess what kinda of boggle my mind is that I deprime after tumbling, so the flashhole should be free of obstruction. However, IF there was a media "clump" the flitz could soak into the powder or a clump of media might be able to retard the burn action of the powder enough to cause this mess.

[ironhorse1]

Good job checking. I'm lead to believe that you may be using mixed cases.

While most 9mm cases are very good some can be problematic. It would be interesting to know the brand that misfired.

BTW Tula cases are very thick and hard to resize. They would be a problem if sent through a FCD.

I still believe with all things considered that you have some loose rounds as per my previous explanations.

To be consistent it would be best to sort cases by brand. Then setting the die produces more uniform results.

Just my $.02 irh

[ironhorse1]

I went to the FCD after having chambering issues because of the expanding die, it just more or less full length resizes the loaded round and while its not overcrimped (which most people agree is bad for plated bullets) it is definitely not a "heavy" crimp. I could play around with this more and maybe move back to the standard taper crimp.[/QUOTE]

Yes it resizes the case and the bullet and while it makes chambering easy you now are getting misfires. You don't want to resize anything. Just remove the bell.

It seems to me that the taper crimp die was not being set properly to remove the bell so another solution was the FCD. You really need to take the barrel out of the gun and plunk test the reloads. Also using calipers will show you when the taper crimp is sufficient.


I hope that this has proved helpful. This is all based on my experiences and the problems I have read on in the past. Been loading 9mm since 1986 with a Lee die set and have never had a single failure in five different autos.

irh

[Bill Steele]

How far into the barrel is it lodging?

A primer only round will stick the bullet into the throat, usually just far enough that the next round won't fully chamber. Primer only will leave thick black soot on the base of the bullet and end of the chamber, far more residual crap than a round with powder.

It might be a contaminated powder issue, but again, a full charge of powder that doesn't burn would leave a LOT of powder gumming up everything. It doesn't take much powder burn to get the bullet well into the rifling (so the next round will chamber cleanly).

If you want to get a feel for how much black crap a normal primer only round emits, load a case with only the primer, chamber it and hang a white rag over the muzzle, you will be amazed at how much sooty crap will be in the rag.

My bet is a powder drop issue, squib rounds.

[dwalker]

How far into the barrel is it lodging?

A primer only round will stick the bullet into the throat, usually just far enough that the next round won't fully chamber. Primer only will leave thick black soot on the base of the bullet and end of the chamber, far more residual crap than a round with powder.

It might be a contaminated powder issue, but again, a full charge of powder that doesn't burn would leave a LOT of powder gumming up everything. It doesn't take much powder burn to get the bullet well into the rifling (so the next round will chamber cleanly).

If you want to get a feel for how much black crap a normal primer only round emits, load a case with only the primer, chamber it and hang a white rag over the muzzle, you will be amazed at how much sooty crap will be in the rag.

My bet is a powder drop issue, squib rounds.

Next round chambers, full rifling on bullet when removed.
There is a LOT of powder residue, not just a bit of soot. Like enough unburned powder on the bullet that it was identifiable as powder. Almost like a coating. Unfortunately I did not think to find or save the ejected case.

Come to think of it, several of the cases from my range trip on friday showed a lot of soot on the outside of the cases, far more than normal. I need to dig them out of my rangebag and check them. There might be something to the theory of too loose a crimp not allowing a complete burn.

[Bill Steele]

Next round chambers, full rifling on bullet when removed.
There is a LOT of powder residue, not just a bit of soot. Like enough unburned powder on the bullet that it was identifiable as powder. Almost like a coating. Unfortunately I did not think to find or save the ejected case.

Come to think of it, several of the cases from my range trip on friday showed a lot of soot on the outside of the cases, far more than normal. I need to dig them out of my rangebag and check them. There might be something to the theory of too loose a crimp not allowing a complete burn.

If the bullet is getting all the way into the rifling (past the throat completely), then you definitely are getting some powder burn as primers alone won't do that. A very light charge of powder will leave unburned powder (lack of pressure keeps burn curtailed), more so with ball powders, less so with flake. Scorches on the sides of the case mean low pressure, again, likely a very light charge.

Crimp only removes neck tension (too much that is). I think I read you checked to see the bullets were firm in the case, pressing on the meplat will verify this. In any case, if the bullet was loose, it will set back into the case upon chambering, raising pressures not lowering them.

It might be contaminated powder or really off primers, but frankly it sure seems like a long shot.

PS - I think I would focus on my powder drop, see if it is reliably dropping the expected amounts. I remember someone reporting a case (and also a bullet one time) in their powder hopper, shorting the occasional drop.

[dwalker]

If the bullet is getting all the way into the rifling (past the throat completely), then you definitely are getting some powder burn as primers alone won't do that. A very light charge of powder will leave unburned powder (lack of pressure keeps burn curtailed), more so with ball powders, less so with flake. Scorches on the sides of the case mean low pressure, again, likely a very light charge.

Crimp only removes neck tension (too much that is). I think I read you checked to see the bullets were firm in the case, pressing on the meplat will verify this. In any case, if the bullet was loose, it will set back into the case upon chambering, raising pressures not lowering them.

It might be contaminated powder or really off primers, but frankly it sure seems like a long shot.

Hence why I am going bonkers trying to sort it out!

Edit to add: CFE pistol is a very fine powder, meters awesomely, which again just frustrates me a bit trying to sort this out.

[Bill Steele]

Sorry, I edited it after you grabbed it. I would look at the drop.

[Bill Steele]

Besides the "bullet in hopper" and "case in hopper" reports I have seen that caused intermittent light powder charges, I had a weird experience a long time ago when I was loading on a Lee Turret and using an Autodisk Pro drop.

Along the way I was bumping the hopper and it was slowly closing. The charges got lighter and lighter. Another example of weird things with powder drops are things loosening up enough that the assembly raises and essentially short strokes, leaving a light charge.

Anyway, it sure sounds like you are getting light charges, some extremely light.