Expander die barely touching brass

[swift]

I have two lots of 45 acp brass that I was resizing today. The first lot had the typical feel during the depriving and expanding steps. The second lot had the normal feel while depriving but the expansion die seemed to barely touch the brass. Since I didn't change the dies, it must be the brass.

Any ideas on what is wrong with the brass?

[GovGeek]

Poor deprived brass.

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[Fjold]

Is the brass a good deal shorter than the first batch?

[Divernhunter]

It was "deprived" of nutrition when it was young and did not grow to full length
So it is shorter. Try measuring it before the belling operation and compare to specs.

[swift]

The brass after resizing and before belling is 0.892", same as the first batch, well within the 0.888 - 0.898".

[jericho89]

shot from the same weapon?

[Metal God]

The brass after resizing and before belling is 0.892", same as the first batch, well within the 0.888 - 0.898".

Can you explain what those numbers represent ? Where are you getting that .010" spread ?

As to why they feel different in the die ?

It's the case wall thickness . My guess is the first lot was either Win , Fed , Speer brass and the second lot was either PPU , Aguila , R.P .

Am I right ????

I separate my 45asp brass by case wall thickness or by head stamp like the above . I have found the thinner walled cases not only don't bell the same as the thicker walled cases . They don't crimp the same either . If my crimp die is set to give a light crimp on Win , Fed , Speer brass . It will not even touch the PPU , Aguila , R.P. cases though R.P. cases are not all thinner but the PPU and Aguila are noticeably thinner the Win , Fed & Speer .

That's one of the reasons I'm still confused why guys say there's no need to separate pistol brass . They either use a big progressive press where they can't feel the difference or don't pay attention when prepping brass . I can almost call out what heads stamp I'm sizing just by the feel as it's being sized . I should note that I did years of meticulous bottle neck case prep before ever loading pistol . It's hard for me not to notice the little things when I'm loading for pistol now or ignore them even though I know they will have little effect on the final product ( hand gun plinking rounds )

[robert101]

I guess you add me to the list. I don't separate 45 ACP cases. As long as I get acceptable neck tension I'm good with it. I'm no "Bullseye" shooter so my groups are good if found to be 3 to 4" at 25 yards. Now on rifle brass this is quite a different matter.

[Rotting]

Let's start at the beginning. So far, you've only complained of a different "feel" as transmitted through the handle of a press. What is the actual result of the expanding operation on the second batch? Did it expand the case mouth or not? How does the success/failure or ease of placing a bullet by hand into a piece of brass from batch A and batch B differ, if at all? How does the diameter of the cases mouths from each batch differ, if at all?

[Divernhunter]

No he also said the expansion die was barely touching the brass. This would give less bell and thus a shorter case would cause it.
That is what I replied about.

[Rotting]

No he also said the expansion die was barely touching the brass. This would give less bell and thus a shorter case would cause it.
That is what I replied about.

No, that is actually NOT what he said. He said, based on FEEL, that the die "seemed" to barely touch the brass. That is nothing to base any sort of valuable conclusion on.

OP should break out the calipers, try to feed some bullets, etc. and get some objective data. Until then, this is just guesswork on everyone's part, and guesswork is pretty worthless.

Furthermore, it is, for all intents and purposes, *impossible* that the same expander die, set identically in the same press to properly expand and bell one case and "barely touch" another case of 45 ACP. What case length disparity could possibly cause that to happen? If anything like this is happening, it is most likely an accidental mixing 45 ACP and 45 GAP brass.

So, we are back where we started--what are the ACTUAL results of the expansion? Measure the diameter of both sets of expanded mouths. That is a logical starting point.

[opos]

I had occasion some months back to have a similar situation loading 38 special. I was using Winchester brass (no nickel) and a set of Lee dies (carbide) that I had just bought to replace a set I gave away...I'd never had a problem with any neck tension before but the Winchester brass mixed in with all kinds of other brass would not hold a bullet firmly after processing.

I measured the brass thickness and found the Winchester was thinner by a few thousandths (yes, I do know how to do it..had a machinist buddy verify my measurements)...

I contacted Lee and they had me send some of the brass...some of the bullets and my sizing die to them...turns out the Winchester brass is often thinner than other brass and the die I had was at the top end of being "in spec"..the combined tolerance issues of thin brass and the die being a bit larger than "normal" gave a problem..The full length sizing die was sizing the brass on the "outside" but the thinner brass didn't get opened up as much when the belling die tried to expand it..they replaced the sizing die with one that measured a bit on the low tolerance side and I've never had a problem since..

Don't know if that helps but it was the whole deal with my problem and nothing was tried with anything but the one Lee die in question...my prior dies (same make and item number) that I'd given away never had any problems like this and Lee's folks said it was probably a die with minimum tolerances in my old original set..there would have still been a bit of a difference due to the brass thin wall in the Winchester but the tolerances were not stacking up.

opos

[Metal God]

Furthermore, it is, for all intents and purposes, *impossible* that the same expander die, set identically in the same press to properly expand and bell one case and "barely touch" another case of 45 ACP.

Although I don't disagree with that quote , you can very much have a die set to work properly for one type/head stamp case that will not work correctly on another .

As I described in my above post . PPU & aguila 45 cases have thinner walls then Win & Fed , at least the ones I have on hand do . By as much as .002 for a total of .004 when adding both sides . The average I just went and measured was Win .0115 & aguila .0105 wall thickness . This was measured with both calipers and a Mic . Though the Mic was showing Aguila around .0098 and Win about .011 . Regardless it confirms the thinner walls .

I've found for what ever reason , Crimping does not come out the same when the die is set to a specific crimp . Meaning if set to give the Aguila a light crimp . That same setting will crimp a Win case more . Now upon further thought , The die does not crimp any more or less when measured after . How ever what does happen is the Win case being thinker will press into the bullet more creating a stronger hold . You can very much feel this when using a single stage press .

The other thing I've noticed when using the thinner walled cases with my expander/powder drop die . Is if my expander is set to lightly expand the thicker walled cases while actuating the powder measure . Sometimes the thinner walled cases don't fully actuate the powder measure resulting in short powder charges . NOTE : I've only noticed this when using the new Lee rotor powder measure with Lee die and Lee CTP .

My point ? I personally can feel the difference when using different head stamps and have observed different head stamps have different results with the same settings .

This is not to say that is the OP's issue . I'm just pointing out something I've noticed that "could" be the problem .

[Divernhunter]

Rotting--You were correct. I misunderstood what his exact wording meant.

[swift]

Looks like thinner brass

Usually reload Winchester brass, the 'problem' lot is CBC. (I did sort by head stamps)
Winchester brass is 1.268" -1.269" at mouth of belled brass, CBC is 1.266".
Brass length same.

I don't have a micrometer, but according to my calipers, the CBC brass wall near the mouth is 0.0015" thinner than the Winchester brass.

Since the outer diameter was so close, I seated a bullet on a case with no primer or powder, then pushed on the bullet. The oal didn't change.

This is the first time I have encountered differences in brass thickness. I was ready to discard the cases, but thanks to you, I will load em up, shoot them and leave the cases for the next person.