Man, I am frustrated. Pistol OAL.

[orangeusa]

I have been using the max OAL in Lee's book from the picture of the cartridge as max OAL. And yeah, pistol is not all that critical, if it works in the field.

So what the heck is min OAL on each load? I have shot thousands of my loads and realized I don't understand this term wrt Lee's book. I usually use factory ammo to set OAL.
.

[bazineta]

Min OAL depends on things like the bullet weight and shape. Often determined by lab testing, i.e., below that either the measured pressure was out of spec or the test fixture exploded.

The max is just that, the SAMMI max, where beyond that it won't fit in the chamber or the magazine. You'll usually never load to the max in a pistol; unusual in a rifle unless you're doing something like benchrest.

Rather than looking at the min or max, you'd tend to look at common OAL; for example, in 45 ACP, a 230gr RN will often be around 1.250 - 1.260 OAL, while a 200gr SWC might be, depending on the bullet mold, 1.230. Typically, at least in a semi-auto, the common OAL is the spot between the min and max at which feeding reliability is best.

[orangeusa]

How do you know all this stuff ? I am not kidding.

Welcome. And yes I am loading 200gn ACP 45ACP.

.

[bazineta]

Knox College.....

For 45 ACP, 200gr bullets, couple of rules of thumb then.

Round nose (RN), i.e., ball ammo, is pretty forgiving in terms of feeding. Follow whatever the recipe in the manual has for it, as it was tested at that OAL, so the amount of case left over, not occupied by the bullet, will be ok in terms of pressure if you follow whatever the recipe has for the OAL they loaded to.

Semi wadcutter (SWC), i.e., target loads, I've seen bring strong men to tears in terms of feeding reliability, and there's a few different bullet profiles to be concerned with there. For example, a Bear Creek 200 SWC looks a lot different from the more common H&G #68 200 SWC, so it's a lot harder to go by OAL. For those, the common rule is to load 'em so that about a fingernail width of the shoulder is exposed above the case mouth. Depending on the bullet profile, that'll result in a different OAL for the same bullet weight and type.

Honestly, when starting out, stick with RN for a while, since your first foray into SWC tends to result in it beating you up and taking your lunch money. It does get better, but IMO it's not one to start with.

[orangeusa]

Welcome! And thanks.

I check the max OAL from several sources. Revolvers don't matter.
And I load OAL on semi-autos using 'factory loads'. This is the first time I haven't had any stock loads to imitate.

But your explanation makes sense.

Take care.

[pacrat]

How do you know all this stuff ? I am not kidding.

Welcome. And yes I am loading 200gn ACP 45ACP.

.

The info imparted by "bazineta" is solid. Your question about.

So what the heck is min OAL on each load?

Each load will have a different min/max depending on the bullet/caliber/chamber depth/ mag lenght on semi's/cylinder lenght on revolvers.

Lee's book, just like all other books are for reference guidelines. Unless you are using the same gun, with the chamber reamed by the same reamer, to the same depth, the same bullet, magazine, cylinder, etc, etc, etc. Most ballistics labs don't even use actual guns anymore. They use "pressure barrels". A chunk of steel with a chamber reamed in it and a piezo electronic sensor wired to it. And a chronograph.


MIN is at the point where pushing a bullet farther into the case increases pressure to a unsafe point.

MAX oal on a revolver is the point where the bullet sticks out of the cylinder front. On most semi's it is governed by mag lenght. But in rare instances where you have a long mag and a short chamber. It is the point just before the bullet contacts the lands.

Everything is variable, all variables are relevant, and no book can cover all combinations of the myriad variations.

JM2c

[orangeusa]

Max = might jam in semi-auto.
Min. = Compressed - which increases pressures beyond table.

Thank you both for your inputs.

.

[noylj]

COL is determined by the GUN and the BULLET.
There is a range of COL that permits the round to feed and chamber. Too long, and the bullet will hit the chamber throat before fully chambering. Too short, and the round won't feed.
No matter what COL you use, you determine that COL before you start loading and work the load up with that COL.
Per Ramshot:
"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum "Start Load".
• Increase in 2% increments towards the Maximum Load.
• Watch for signs of excessive pressure.
• Never exceed the Maximum Load."

Your COL (OAL) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood. After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

[micro911]

I just load to magazine length.

[CGT80]

I just load to magazine length.

I have loaded for a number of firearms where that won't work.

The steps from noylj are great.

I start long and work my way deeper. It is good to go at least 5 thousandths deeper than you max, but 10-15 is better. If you do your tests with a clean chamber and don't seat deep enough, build up can have some effect, especially if you run cast and lubed bullets.

Use separate seat and crimp dies. You can use a single die, but it is an exercise in frustration. Sometimes not having enough crimp can make you think the COAL is too long. When you think you have it right, pull the seated bullet and check to see if the bullet has been deformed by the case mouth. Some of the bullets I use are bear creek moly coated lead and too much crimp will have an effect on the standard deviation numbers when running the load over a chronograph.

If your bullets have a cannelure, it is usually best to crimp into that cannelure. Normally, they will be the proper length, and it eliminates damage to the bullet, as long as you seat to the right depth and crimp the proper amount.

Some bullets, usually cast (such as with a moly coating or when using an oversize bullet), don't drop right out of a barrel when you do the plunk test, but a very slight pull on the case head will get them out.

Once you get the seating and crimp correct, then work up a load. I keep a load book with whatever I try and each firearm has it's own page, or multiples. Even if the load doesn't work well, I can later see what I tried and what did and did not work, so I don't repeat the bad results.

It is possible to load too long and have it chamber, but have the bullet stay in the lead of the barrel when the case is extracted. Just watch out for that. I have no problem with running shorter than what might be listed in a book, but I only go as short as necessary and watch how it effects feeding and how the ammo moves in the mag, and also start with min loads and only increase the load until I get good function and accuracy. There are a few powders that don't like to be loaded too light and there are some that work well for very light loads. If you use published data, you should be ok. If you load hot or near max, then the seating depth may make a real difference in the pressure of the load.

Bullet profiles do vary greatly, so factory ammo is almost useless as a guide. New ammo tends to have smaller diameter brass than fired and resized brass, as well. Semi wad cutters can be a pain. I remember trying to load them for a 1911, before I really understood how to get ammo to feed. A couple years ago, I did use them in my XD 40 pistol and they ran great and made holes in IPSC targets that looked like 45 cal holes. They ran and shot great, but the commercial hard lube was a mess in the gun.

[Chief-7700]

H&G #68 200 grain LSWC 1.240" works in all my Colts, Springfields and Rugers.
Chief

[eaglemike]

Max and Min OAL is a variable, depending on bullet shape, cartridge/caliber variation, and your firearm and the magazines you use (if used).

1.240 to 1.260 has worked for me with the H7G #68 200 gr - I'd always look for 1.250.

If you get a 3-point jam, try lengthening about .01 (or more, depending on where you started) and see if that helps. (a 3-point jam is where it's wedged with the bullet hitting top of chamber, casing wedged on ramp, and slide hitting back of case). It seems counter-intuitive, at least it did to me years ago, to go longer when this happened. But I did load the next batch longer, and the problem went away. YMMV......

Lots of good .45 acp magazines around now, and this helps a LOT. The Wilson seem to be the gold standard in my experience. IIRC it's the 47D (too lazy to go look up the number right now).

If the shoulder of the bullet is too sharp or loaded too far forward for your firearm, even if the OAL is within specification, it will be a problem. Chambers vary a lot, if not custom reamed.

Using .45acp, min oal has never been a problem in my experience, as it quits feeding (the way I want, with the bullets I've used) before I get there. Min oal and max loads can result in pressure issues. This is worse in higher pressure cartridges like .40 and 9mm, as a general rule.

Other things can affect feeding, like a bubba'd ramp/barrel blend, etc. Ramped barrels as used in some guns make life a LOT easier.

The above is just intended as a little help to the OP. YMMV.........