Ammo Manufacturing

[Theseus]

This board has proven to be an extremely valuable resource in finding information quickly.

I lack the skills and patience to find all the pertinent laws and regulations right now so I put it to someone here whom might know.

I originally considered reloading ammo for 7.62 x 39 and 54R, most specifically for use in California where steel is basically verboten.

Here is the idea:

At first I just wanted to reload for my friend and myself. But then I got to thinking that MANY in California would like to get some non-steel 7.62x39/54R ammunition, most especially if I can get the cost to about the same price as the steel ammo.

At what point to I become a manufacturer of ammunition vs simply a reloader? If I become a manufacturer by the simple act of putting it in a box and selling it then why not go the full extent and have it factory produced?

I have many connections in China and can get my hands on basically anything and also have friends in China's government that can get me permission to export just about anything.

With that in mind should I have this ammo manufactured in China and imported to America or should I have the components made in China and assemble or manufacture the ammunition here in the US?

It is currently only academic, but if I can find enough answers here to work the numbers and ascertain the profitability of doing such it might be made a reality.

[jmzhwells]

Made In America always looks better, especially to me.

[JeffM]

IIRC ammo from china has been banned from import into the US.

You also need an FFL (forgot the type) and a significant insurance policy to sell reloaded ammunition in the US.

[grammaton76]

IIRC ammo from china has been banned from import into the US.

Yep, this is very true.

...however, can't aforementioned Chinese friends set up shop in, say, Singapore or some other not-actually-China country? I seem to recall that a lot of the companies over there are pretty friendly to Chinese business.

[JeffM]

Yep, this is very true.

...however, can't aforementioned Chinese friends set up shop in, say, Singapore or some other not-actually-China country? I seem to recall that a lot of the companies over there are pretty friendly to Chinese business.

I'm not sure if the ban applies to components, but if you can get brass and bullets for a reasonable amount, there would be a market for it, and a lot less overhead than for manufacturing live ammo.

[grammaton76]

I'm not sure if the ban applies to components, but if you can get brass and bullets for a reasonable amount, there would be a market for it, and a lot less overhead than for manufacturing live ammo.

VERY good point! I would *LOVE* to get a source for the projectiles Wolf puts in their loaded ammo. It's gotta be cheap, wherever they're getting their projectiles from.

Heck, anyone looked at the price of 123gr 7.62x39mm projectiles? You can almost buy Wolf loaded rounds as cheaply as you can buy the projectiles alone, which tells me there's space in the market for that caliber at least.

[freonr22]

why do we have to continually have to have/support items made in china??? i am so not prejudiced in any way. why would we support the human rights violations???? lets keep taking jobs from america and continue in our current state of economic decline... i cant continue... without being derogatory

[rayra]

grammaton, I suspect that Wolf is manufacturing their own bullets. Wolf was started by some entrepeneurs that bought the just-closed Warsaw Pact military ammo factories shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and also turned around and hired the same folks that used to work there.
It's why everything they did at first was steel/steel/steel, regardless of caliber / type. Mild steel was a whole lot more available and much cheaper than copper, for the Sovs.
They since expanded their product line of course, and worked to meet our market's non-steel demands, but their basic 7.62x39mm products are essentially unchanged. Thus why I say / think they are manufacturing the projectiles as well.

[rayra]

Theseus, if you were to seriously consider such a goal, I'm sure there's a market for your product. Frankly I'm surprised there haven't been more startups over the last 4-5yrs of rising demand / price.
But keep an eye out for potential import bans and other ammo restrictions. Your timing is probably too late, considering the authoritarian scum we've just elected to high office.

[mrkubota]

You need an 06 (ammunition mfg) type FFL to make ammo for sale. There's some additional paperwork to import components/live ammo as well.
Only 30.00 for three years. You have to submit full fingerprint cards and pass the std FBI background check.
You'll also need a CA seller's permit (resale license) Sales taxes are paid quarterly to the CA Franchise Tax Board.
May or may not need to have a commercial business address and business license, depends on your local ordinances. May be some restrictions/requirements on sale records (like in L.A.) and storage of components/live ammo as well.
BATFE agent will visit and interview you and check out the production site.

Liability insurance is expensive (about 7K/yr) and usually required by retail sellers before they'll carry your product on their shelves. Not required otherwise, but still a good idea.

If you mfg. or remanufacture ammo, an 11% Federal excise tax is applied. as well as CA sales tax if sold withing the state.
If you reload a customer's brass, then the FET is not applied, but of course CA sales tax still is for in-state sales.

Federal taxes are generally collected quarterly and managed by the TTB:

http://www.ttb.gov/forms/f530026.pdf

Shipping must be via common carrier like FEDEX or UPS. A separate hazmat certification is needed to ship powder or primers by themselves. Primed brass or loaded ammo IS NOT considered hazmat, only ORM-D. Shipping carton must be labeled accordingly and boxes must meet strength requirements.

There's a lot of paperwork.....

[ke6guj]

You need to talk to Ben (MrKubota), He's an 06 and may be able to help you get pointed in the right direction.

edit: too slow, he already posted some info.

[Theseus]

why do we have to continually have to have/support items made in china??? i am so not prejudiced in any way. why would we support the human rights violations???? lets keep taking jobs from america and continue in our current state of economic decline... i cant continue... without being derogatory

I would prefer to make all in America, but will the market bear it? I am not intending to make it rich overnight or anything...I just know how frustrating it is to have a rifle turn into a safe queen because ammo is hard to find or WAY to expensive. . . My M38 can cost upwards of 1.00/round!

You need an 06 (ammunition mfg) type FFL to make ammo for sale. There's some additional paperwork to import components/live ammo as well.
Only 30.00 for three years. You have to submit full fingerprint cards and pass the std FBI background check.
You'll also need a CA seller's permit (resale license) Sales taxes are paid quarterly to the CA Franchise Tax Board.
May or may not need to have a commercial business address and business license, depends on your local ordinances. May be some restrictions/requirements on sale records (like in L.A.) and storage of components/live ammo as well.
BATFE agent will visit and interview you and check out the production site.

Liability insurance is expensive (about 7K/yr) and usually required by retail sellers before they'll carry your product on their shelves. Not required otherwise, but still a good idea.

If you mfg. or remanufacture ammo, an 11% Federal excise tax is applied. as well as CA sales tax if sold withing the state.
If you reload a customer's brass, then the FET is not applied, but of course CA sales tax still is for in-state sales.

Federal taxes are generally collected quarterly and managed by the TTB:

http://www.ttb.gov/forms/f530026.pdf

Shipping must be via common carrier like FEDEX or UPS. A separate hazmat certification is needed to ship powder or primers by themselves. Primed brass or loaded ammo IS NOT considered hazmat, only ORM-D. Shipping carton must be labeled accordingly and boxes must meet strength requirements.

There's a lot of paperwork.....

Wow...that was a wonderful wealth of information! I tried looking on the ATF website but did not see any license for anything but importing ammunition.

See! CalGuns yet again proves it itself invaluable! But one question for you...is there any reason in particular that you yourself might not just wish to fill the need? Or in your opinion is there too much demand for just one supplier?

[grammaton76]

See! CalGuns yet again proves it itself invaluable! But one question for you...is there any reason in particular that you yourself might not just wish to fill the need? Or in your opinion is there too much demand for just one supplier?

I think one consideration is that in order to make it at prices competitive to Wolf, he'd have to basically work for free.

On the other hand, that's exactly what reloaders are doing and there should be a nice market for projectiles.

[JeffM]

I think one consideration is that in order to make it at prices competitive to Wolf, he'd have to basically work for free.

On the other hand, that's exactly what reloaders are doing and there should be a nice market for projectiles.

Exactly. Components would be the easiest way to go because of the lower overhead. The only cheap alternative right now for those calibers is molding your own lead and using gas checks. If jacketed bullets, whatever the source, were to be made it would have a decent market for the reloaders that are set up to load, but don't cast bullets, or want to push the velocity past what lead can handle.

[freakshow10mm]

You need an 06 (ammunition mfg) type FFL to make ammo for sale. There's some additional paperwork to import components/live ammo as well.
Only 30.00 for three years. You have to submit full fingerprint cards and pass the std FBI background check.
You'll also need a CA seller's permit (resale license) Sales taxes are paid quarterly to the CA Franchise Tax Board.
May or may not need to have a commercial business address and business license, depends on your local ordinances. May be some restrictions/requirements on sale records (like in L.A.) and storage of components/live ammo as well.
BATFE agent will visit and interview you and check out the production site.

Liability insurance is expensive (about 7K/yr) and usually required by retail sellers before they'll carry your product on their shelves. Not required otherwise, but still a good idea.

If you mfg. or remanufacture ammo, an 11% Federal excise tax is applied. as well as CA sales tax if sold withing the state.
If you reload a customer's brass, then the FET is not applied, but of course CA sales tax still is for in-state sales.

Federal taxes are generally collected quarterly and managed by the TTB:

http://www.ttb.gov/forms/f530026.pdf

Shipping must be via common carrier like FEDEX or UPS. A separate hazmat certification is needed to ship powder or primers by themselves. Primed brass or loaded ammo IS NOT considered hazmat, only ORM-D. Shipping carton must be labeled accordingly and boxes must meet strength requirements.

There's a lot of paperwork.....

Pretty much. I got my start as an 06 ammunition manufacturer. Insurance was $2200 per year. I didn't need it. I had my ammo on many shelves in the region and supplied several LE agencies with both training ammo and duty ammo.