What's the real difference between reloading die brands?

[fguffey]

Most dies size the front of the case too much and they don't size the head of the case enough.

Size the head of the case? I use shell holders, all of my shell holders have a deck height. the deck height of my shell holders is .125". I have a few that that do not have a deck height of .125", I purchased a Redding competition set of 5 shell holders #6 for belted magnum for $5.00. Three of the 5 were off by .001" each, for me? That is not a problem. Then there are the shell holders made in the '50s.

Sizing the head of the case? I can not size the head of the case because the bottom .125" of the case head is in the shell holder, plus I have the radius of the die. That leaves small base dies, they must be referring to the bottom of the die as the base because the base? of the case is protected from being sized by the shell holder.

F. Guffey

[LynnJr]

Frank
With most factory dies they oversize the shoulder area and they don't size the base or area near the cases head enough.
Feeler gauges have no purpose in reloading unless you are just starting out and not a serious reloader.
You can size the casehead by pushing it through a swage die that is used to tighten up primer pockets. They don't work as well with magnums because of the belt but they work well on those without.
Competition shellholders are supposed to vary in length in 0.0005 or 0.001 increments.
And just because you don't know how to do something doesn't mean that others here don't.

[fguffey]

Competition shellholders are supposed to vary in length in 0.0005 or 0.001 increments.

Length? Length.

doesn't mean that others here don't.

There is nothing like telling me everything you know about shell holders and removing all doubt 'you don't know'. Competition shell holders from Redding increase in deck height in increments of .002", LENGTH? The one thing they can not claim is precession, I have 5, of the 5 3 are off by .001" each. For me that is not a problem.

F. Guffey

[LynnJr]

Frank
Competition shellholders vary the shoulder bump length of cases and don't change the height.
I use higher quality shellholders than you use and they vary 0.0005 not 0.002 like yours. If you need 0.002 increments and I am sure you do your doing other things wrong.
It's too bad you know nothing at all about reloading for accuracy but you don't.
You don't know about bumping shoulders you don't know about sizing casehead or the equipment used you don't know about donuts and why they exist.
You would be better served to ask questions rather than posting about what you yourself are struggling to grasp.

[JMP]

Most dies size the front of the case too much and they don't size the head of the case enough.

Size the head of the case? I use shell holders, all of my shell holders have a deck height. the deck height of my shell holders is .125". I have a few that that do not have a deck height of .125", I purchased a Redding competition set of 5 shell holders #6 for belted magnum for $5.00. Three of the 5 were off by .001" each, for me? That is not a problem. Then there are the shell holders made in the '50s.

Sizing the head of the case? I can not size the head of the case because the bottom .125" of the case head is in the shell holder, plus I have the radius of the die. That leaves small base dies, they must be referring to the bottom of the die as the base because the base? of the case is protected from being sized by the shell holder.

F. Guffey

Guffey, I find your posts very insightful as it is clear that you look at reloading from a perspective different from most and have applied a lot of critical thought and reasoning. However, I struggle to understand your posts, and a lot of it is the way you parse in quotes; it isn't easy to figure out who said what and what you are referring to. Please note in the above example you replied to Lynn, but I wasn't sure whom you were referring to and in what context.

If you instead quote like the following example of the same quote in a similar manner as everyone else it would be easier to follow. Also, by preserving the tag, you see that it gives a little blue chevron next to the poster's name. We can click on that chevron and it brings up back to the original poster's entire post that you are quoting so we can get a better sense of the context.

That's just the sense I get as it leads to a lot of confusion. I am a relatively smart and educated guy with enough reloading experience, yet sometimes it is difficult to follow your posts. I have found that writing on internet forums is very different from prose writing, business writing, and technical writing as it is interpreted. I appreciate your posts, but I only make the suggestion to read through it and keep the tags on the quote so the line of writing is clear. With this, I think we can have a better dialogue and all learn a bit and get into areas of more provocative thought as you have suggested.

See the same quote of how you would quote the above phrase. We can see who wrote it and click the chevron to see the entire post in context. A lot of people that read the posts are not as smart as you and have little to no experience reloading. If you can take this into consideration when responding, I think it'll be a better discussion. (There is also a multi-quote feature that allows you to preserve the tags and quote multiple posts in one reply).

Finally, another good reason to preserve one's quote tag is that many people post using their cellular phones. When they due this, there is an application (commonly Tapatalk) that alerts the user that his quote has been replied to. Otherwise, you get no notification unless you subscribe to the thread.

Most dies size the front of the case too much and they don't size the head of the case enough.

I think the clear articulation would help and there'd be less confusion. On the internet you need to keep everything simple and clear or it WILL get misinterpreted by some. You also use a lot of non-standard terminology like "do-nut" that the average reader will probably not know to what you are referring so it's just the folks with quite a bit of experience that can figure out exactly what you mean.

Just a thought, and it can possible further your goal of more thought provoking conversations and ideas.

[LynnJr]

JMP
When bottleneck rifle brass is made it starts with a straight wall that gets formed into the bottle neck shape.
When the neck is shrunk down to a smaller size it gets thicker. The area at the neck shoulder junction gets thicker on the inside of the case because the forming is inward on the case walls.
This creates a doughnut or donut at the neck shoulder junction.
When that case gets resized many here load to SAAMI spec which pushes the shoulder back more than is needed.
Upon the next firing with the shoulder bumped back too far the unburned expanding gunpowder pushes the shoulder forward and it thus thins the brass near the web of the case.
Now when the brass is once again sized to SAAMI spec the shoulder gets bumped back again pushing the brass in the shoulder area into the neck of the case worsening the do-nut.
This is why cases are constantly needing trimming and we see casehead separations.
The Do-Nut is a restriction so it naturally raises pressure but it also means if your seated bullet comes into contact with it you can get variances with your seating depth.
They sell tooling to remove the do-nut.

[JMP]

This creates a doughnut or donut at the neck shoulder junction.
When that case gets resized many here load to SAAMI spec which pushes the shoulder back more than is needed.
Upon the next firing with the shoulder bumped back too far the unburned expanding gunpowder pushes the shoulder forward and it thus thins the brass near the web of the case.
Now when the brass is once again sized to SAAMI spec the shoulder gets bumped back again pushing the brass in the shoulder area into the neck of the case worsening the do-nut.
This is why cases are constantly needing trimming and we see casehead separations.

This makes sense to me; however, it seems like a much larger concern for people firing semi-automatic rifles that require FL sizing each time. However, with semi-automatic rifles like ARs, I'd think on the flip side, it's less of an issue as you will not be reloading a set of brass that many times as the brass gets lost and damaged. I do not have the time or think it is worth investing that much time shooting semiautos as it is nearly impossible to keep track of all the firings on your brass. Then, semiautos are inherently not that accurate anyways so it defeats the purpose of going through a lot of effort to size and prep for high precision. In autoloading pistols, it again isn't an issue as they are straight-walled. While some would disagree, close is good enough for me when I shoot ARs as my ARs do not have better, custom barrels.

In a bolt rifle, the chamber is fully supported and still fits in the chamber each time. I've always been of the belief that less sizing is better as I do not like to over-work the brass, and this is why I will not size with the expander ball type dies as they both provide for assymetry and over-working. I do not find growing cases and most of the time I do not trim. More frequently than not, I do not resize my shoulder, rather, I use a neck bushing only to size my brass as the spring-back from the brass is a good fit for the chamber and provides plenty of clearance and a good fit for the next firing. I measure the neck thickness of the brass in quadrants with a vernier micrometer to make sure that it has uniform thickness around, or you add unnecessary run-out when you seat the bullet.

If you are going to FL size every time, you would want your die to be the right fit with your chamber so you will need a die that can be set to the right length, or as you mentioned, it is much better to get a set of custom dies for sizing so it does not provide a mismatch with your chamber.

I think a lot of the problem is not just the die that people use, a large issue is the chamber on the rifle. For most of the barrels off in off the shelf cheap rifles that probably has a made in China barrel, the chamber is cut too deeply and it is tougher to set your die up right as you will not be able to size it by having an ordinary die sit flush with the shellholder. Instead, you will need to set the die higher and you will not be able to size your case with contact with the shellholder. I believe there is a benefit for the die to make light contact with the shellholder as this helps with alignment. This is the reason that I dislike barrels where the reamer is run too deep. If the chamber's headspace is set at the minimum dimensions, I think most dies will work better as they will not have as much issues over-sizing. When you size your shoulder, I believe that you do not want to have any more than 0.001" of headspace clearance in your chamber.

I think the common error made is not so much the actual die, but rather it is not having the die set up correctly in relation to your chamber. If you are sizing down to 0.005" of excess headspace, then resizing it to this dimension each time, the case will certainly grow and grow and need trimming. Really, the only time I run my brass set through the trimmer each time is when I am loading a bore-rider with the a driving band that is made to sit just outside of the neck. If you put the case in your trimmer and it cuts any significant amount, chances are that you haven't set up your die correctly.

[fguffey]

JMP. you seem to have two standards.

Frank
With most factory dies they oversize the shoulder area and they don't size the base or area near the cases head enough.
Feeler gauges have no purpose in reloading unless you are just starting out and not a serious reloader.
You can size the casehead by pushing it through a swage die that is used to tighten up primer pockets. They don't work as well with magnums because of the belt but they work well on those without.
Competition shellholders are supposed to vary in length in 0.0005 or 0.001 increments.
And just because you don't know how to do something doesn't mean that others here don't.

You found nothing wrong with the quote above. I believe Lynnjr got out of the house without knowing how to act in public.

If a die oversized a case a reloader should be able to determine 'by how much'.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

I think a lot of the problem is not just the die that people use, a large issue is the chamber on the rifle. For most of the barrels off in off the shelf cheap rifles that probably has a made in China barrel, the chamber is cut too deeply and it is tougher to set your die up right as you will not be able to size it by having an ordinary die sit flush with the shellholder. Instead, you will need to set the die higher and you will not be able to size your case with contact with the shellholder. I believe there is a benefit for the die to make light contact with the shellholder as this helps with alignment. This is the reason that I dislike barrels where the reamer is run too deep. If the chamber's headspace is set at the minimum dimensions, I think most dies will work better as they will not have as much issues over-sizing. When you size your shoulder, I believe that you do not want to have any more than 0.001" of headspace clearance in your chamber.

Who is running the reamer? a reloader should be able to determine the ability of the die to size the case. All I want between the case body and chamber is air, clean air, not a lot of air. I understand air is fluid, I understand air flows and I understand air can be compressed.


Then there are factors. It was suggested I was into some risky stuff, I did not agree because of factors.

F. Guffey

[JMP]

Then there are factors. It was suggested I was into some risky stuff, I did not agree because of factors.

F. Guffey

You didn't understand what I said. It was a generalization about the way you quote as you did again. Anyways, it was just a suggestion.

I am not seeing where anything was suggested that your practice was "risky".

[LynnJr]

JMP
It is my understanding that Frank only loads for Mausers and that he doesn't reload to improve his accuracy.
I get that from how he describes his reloading practices.
He hasn't advanced his technique in 15 years is what I am seeing.
I don't think he keeps up on the more modern ways of doing things.

[LynnJr]

JMP. you seem to have two standards.



You found nothing wrong with the quote above. I believe Lynnjr got out of the house without knowing how to act in public.

If a die oversized a case a reloader should be able to determine 'by how much'.

F. Guffey

JMP
The reason I posted that most factory dies oversize the shoulder area is because I do know how to measure my cases and I know by how much.

[JMP]

JMP
It is my understanding that Frank only loads for Mausers and that he doesn't reload to improve his accuracy.
I get that from how he describes his reloading practices.
He hasn't advanced his technique in 15 years is what I am seeing.
I don't think he keeps up on the more modern ways of doing things.

I think I have seen him describe using feeler gauges. this seems like an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how they are being applied. it would be nice if someone posted a picture. I am imagining the feeler gauge as something that fits flush on top of the shell holder and goes all the way around for the die to make contact with. this does seem like it's a viable solution when you have chambers that are very long in headspace. I believe it was the Redding competition shell holders made to alleviate this need.

however, like you say, if you are shooting with Mausers, there isn't a whole lot of precision that's needed. thus, I would certainly spend less time with some of the smaller details.

JMP
The reason I posted that most factory dies oversize the shoulder area is because I do know how to measure my cases and I know by how much.

I believe that you know how to set your dies, but many other people do not. I think that a lot of the factory dies, like the Redding dies do not necessarily over size as long as you get your chamber cut small at minimum dimensions. I think that a lot of people default to setting their dies to simply index them from the shell holder. With off the shelf factory barrels, they are universally made with big chambers to fit everything so there is a natural tendency for people to oversize.

[TMB 1]

however, like you say, if you are shooting with Mausers, there isn't a whole lot of precision that's needed. thus, I would certainly spend less time with some of the smaller details.

What's wrong with Mausers?

[LynnJr]

Nothing inherently wrong with them but they were made a long time ago before standards were established so the metal can be sub par.
With today's modern rounds you can get lug setback from the higher pressures we use today.
They are also harder to true up because they aren't round which means you need a jig.
They are thin which means you can only hang light barrels on them and being thin they are harder on the bedding.
Next the only good trigger you can get for one is the Kepplinger but a properly reworked Timney will help.
The extractor requires you to feed rounds from the magazine so it needs to be ground down for single feeding.
The front has a built in recoul lug so pillar bedding doesn't work as well because you don't have much area to work with.
Lock time is slow.
The shroud needs replacing to get rid of the safety after you replace the trigger.
The newer actions are simply upgraded too much to ignore.