38 Special as a rifle round - any loading data available?

[wbunning]

I roll my .38's the same for rifle and pistol.

[Spyder]

Bumping this, as a lot of us recently bought or got back in to 38/357 lever guns, and there's some decent info in here.

Plus, I just set up my Dillon to load the crap out of 38 and 357, so I'm researching...

Fun. http://guns.connect.fi/gow/ed.html

[hermosabeach]

It’s saami- they set the specs on the loads

2 options
Load lead -slow -so you don’t end up with a leaded up 18” barrel
How slow? Depends on how hard cast the bullet is or how soft.

Option 2 - load .38 special to +p levels

[WHH]

Most manuals that have rifle and pistol data for the same cartridge have identical loads. They are just showing you the velocity out of a longer barrel. That said, many load 38 special way past even the +P level without issues in an 1894, but don't take my word for it.

Cast bullet wizard Glen Fryxell reports success with a 12.0 grains of 2400 behind a range of cast bullets from 158–180 gr. Good info here if you are reloading for an 1894, but I would work up to any of the beyond-spec 38 loads he talks about.

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin1894.htm

[ar15barrels]

Row 1087 of Internet Reloading Manual Index shows Hornady 2nd Edition list Rifle Loadings.

Those are higher loads for use in a rifle because the rifle can handle higher pressures, not just because the barrel is longer.
The reason they give separate data is to show what velocities would be with the rifle length barrel.
They are basically running close to 357 pressures in the shorter case.
That's why they would be unsafe in a 38 special handgun that does not have a 357 magnum chambering.

If we explore this with Quickload, we can see what any load would do in any barrel length and even make any pressure we want in the computer model.

[bruss01]

The rifle/carbine length barrel tends to make better use (more increased velocity over same load in a pistol) when using medium to slow'ish powders.

Though all my loads can be fired in their respective pistols, I've really liked Unique for 38/357 and 45 ACP caliber carbines. Blue Dot in 45 Colt.

My rounds which I intend to shoot only in pistols tend to get propelled by faster powders like HP38.

FWIW, I really enjoy my pistol caliber carbines. Pretty much my favorite "camp guns".

Yes. You CAN load the same... but as mentioned slower powders can improve velocity in a longer barrel. 800x, Lil'Gun and Longshot work well in .40 & 10mm for instance. I don't have a recipe for .38... one would think .357 brass would be preferred for multiple reasons.

[Scota4570]

I no longer load any hotter than the weakest firearm you own, in that caliber. Calibers like 44-40 and 45-70 can be hotroded in certain guns but other guns require powder puff loads. A mix up can be very bad.

At very least mark the hot loads with red sharpie.

IF you actually need more power, get a more powerful gun.

[WHH]

Those are higher loads for use in a rifle because the rifle can handle higher pressures, not just because the barrel is longer.
The reason they give separate data is to show what velocities would be with the rifle length barrel.
They are basically running close to 357 pressures in the shorter case.
That's why they would be unsafe in a 38 special handgun that does not have a 357 magnum chambering.

If we explore this with Quickload, we can see what any load would do in any barrel length and even make any pressure we want in the computer model.

[ar15barrels]

Of course.
Some dipweed would load those loads in his model 10.

[jwb28]

I think the data in Lyman's manual and most current manuals is the same for rifle and pistol. They just give the velocity out of a 16 or 20 inch barrel for .357 rifle loads. But the powder charges are the same.
As others have said, loads like Elmer Keiths 38 special and 2400 would probably be fine in a Henry rifle. I wouldn't put it n a model 10 and pull the trigger.

My Henry Big Boy lever-action rifle will shoot .357 Magnum as well as .38 Special rounds. The Lyman's Reloading Manual has rifle data on loading the .357 Mag as a rifle round, but is silent on rifle loads for a .38 Special.

Do other reloading manuals include this information, (.38 Special as a rifle round)? Or, is it just something that is not done?

(Lyman's has load data on both calibers as a pistol round. I know the .38 Special is not the optimal rifle round, but want the option to use it; and load my own cartridges.) I've shot factory load .38 Special out of the Henry without any problem.

[ar15barrels]

Quickload comparisons with H4227:

Cartridge          : .38 Special (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .355, 124, Hornady HP/XTP 35571
Useable Case Capaci: 16.242 grain H2O = 1.055 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.450 inch = 36.83 mm
Barrel Length      : 4.0 inch = 101.6 mm
Powder             : IMR 4227

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.923% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-19.2   77    10.50    770     163    9934   3924     33.9    0.696
-17.3   78    10.75    787     171   10435   4101     34.6    0.681
-15.4   80    11.00    805     178   10963   4284     35.4    0.666
-13.5   82    11.25    823     187   11519   4472     36.1    0.652
-11.5   84    11.50    842     195   12104   4666     36.9    0.637
-09.6   86    11.75    860     204   12719   4866     37.7    0.623
-07.7   88    12.00    879     213   13369   5071     38.5    0.610
-05.8   89    12.25    899     222   14051   5283     39.3    0.596
-03.8   91    12.50    919     232   14773   5501     40.1    0.583  ! Near Maximum !
-01.9   93    12.75    939     243   15534   5725     41.0    0.569  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   95    13.00    959     253   16332   5956     41.8    0.557  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.9   97    13.25    980     264   17183   6193     42.7    0.544  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.8   98    13.50   1001     276   18078   6437     43.6    0.531  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.8  100    13.75   1022     288   19025   6684     44.5    0.519  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+07.7  102    14.00   1043     300   20026   6936     45.4    0.507  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+09.6  104    14.25   1065     312   21085   7193     46.3    0.495  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Cartridge          : .38 Special (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .355, 124, Hornady HP/XTP 35571
Useable Case Capaci: 16.242 grain H2O = 1.055 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.450 inch = 36.83 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm
Powder             : IMR 4227

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.923% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-19.2   77    10.50   1126     349    9934   1055     48.4    1.707
-17.3   78    10.75   1149     363   10435   1099     49.4    1.671
-15.4   80    11.00   1173     379   10963   1144     50.3    1.636
-13.5   82    11.25   1197     394   11519   1190     51.2    1.601
-11.5   84    11.50   1221     411   12104   1237     52.2    1.568
-09.6   86    11.75   1246     427   12719   1285     53.2    1.535
-07.7   88    12.00   1271     445   13369   1333     54.1    1.503
-05.8   89    12.25   1297     463   14051   1381     55.1    1.471
-03.8   91    12.50   1322     482   14773   1431     56.1    1.440  ! Near Maximum !
-01.9   93    12.75   1349     501   15534   1480     57.1    1.410  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   95    13.00   1375     521   16332   1531     58.1    1.381  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.9   97    13.25   1402     541   17183   1581     59.1    1.352  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.8   98    13.50   1429     562   18078   1632     60.0    1.324  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.8  100    13.75   1456     584   19025   1684     61.0    1.296  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+07.7  102    14.00   1484     606   20026   1735     62.0    1.269  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+09.6  104    14.25   1512     630   21085   1787     63.0    1.242  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[ar15barrels]

And here are powder chooser passes with that same 125gr xtp for those same 4" and 16" barrel lengths:

Cartridge          : .38 Special (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .355, 124, Hornady HP/XTP 35571
Useable Case Capaci: 16.242 grain H2O = 1.055 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.450 inch = 36.83 mm
Barrel Length      : 4.0 inch = 101.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 17000 psi, or 117 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

13 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 50%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma R123                          82.1     12.3     0.80    1087    70.8    17000   10096   0.559  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N105                     80.8      9.5     0.61    1044    74.2    17000    8095   0.547  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Enforcer                    78.9     12.1     0.78    1023    57.2    17000    7762   0.555  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 296                      89.5     14.4     0.93    1021    44.6    17000    7864   0.550  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                     90.5     14.1     0.91    1021    49.8    17000    7872   0.545  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N110                     98.2     12.5     0.81    1020    54.4    17000    7632   0.547  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H110                        89.5     14.4     0.93    1019    48.7    17000    7786   0.550  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate No.7                       59.7      9.6     0.62    1008    66.6    17000    7397   0.556  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant 2400                        76.1     10.8     0.70    1005    56.8    17000    7397   0.557  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant POWER PISTOL                59.1      7.0     0.46    1004    77.6    17000    7157   0.559  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 4100                       80.9     12.5     0.81    1003    53.0    17000    7202   0.553  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori 3N38                     72.1      8.8     0.57     999    71.3    17000    7050   0.556  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Cartridge          : .38 Special (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .355, 124, Hornady HP/XTP 35571
Useable Case Capaci: 16.242 grain H2O = 1.055 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.450 inch = 36.83 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 17000 psi, or 117 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

13 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 50%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma R123                          82.1     12.3     0.80    1677    95.3    17000    2432   1.249  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                     90.5     14.1     0.91    1549    74.7    17000    2210   1.291  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 296                      89.5     14.4     0.93    1534    64.7    17000    2101   1.301  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N105                     80.8      9.5     0.61    1532    94.5    17000    1838   1.289  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H110                        89.5     14.4     0.93    1524    69.2    17000    2044   1.304  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Enforcer                    78.9     12.1     0.78    1516    78.1    17000    1936   1.310  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N110                     98.2     12.5     0.81    1514    76.2    17000    1966   1.304  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant 2400                        76.1     10.8     0.70    1479    76.2    17000    1815   1.329  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate No.7                       59.7      9.6     0.62    1475    86.1    17000    1743   1.328  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 4100                       80.9     12.5     0.81    1470    72.3    17000    1790   1.329  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate No.9                       66.7     10.6     0.69    1457    79.4    17000    1719   1.335  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant POWER PISTOL                59.1      7.0     0.46    1453    94.3    17000    1613   1.338  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[J-cat]

If the OP has a 357 rifle, then any 38 load will be safe. You can even use 357 data in 38 cases as long as you use 357 OAL.

[mjmagee67]

I tend to run a slower powder in 38sp rifle. My pistol load is with Bullseye, but I use Power Pistol in rifle. When I started reloading I used Power Pistol a lot. Now I don't use it much but have 6+ lbs of it. So it gets used in 38sp and light 357mag rounds.

[Mayor]

My Rossi with 16 in barrel likes 3.6 of titegroup the best.