Paging software engineers and the like...

[TacFan]

You already said something very important about bugs. Taking longer initially to find the bugs and eliminate them is cheaper than having to go back later on.

[pepsi2451]

I'm also working through CodeAcademy.com's Python course, which I plan to follow with everything else they offer.

The codecademy.com python course is good, at least it was for a beginner like me. Have you looked at any MOOCs? The certificate might not be worth much but a lot of them you can audit and just skip to the stuff your interested in.

I really enjoyed "An Introduction to Interactive Programming in Python" through coursera.org. Its the first course in a 3 part "Principles of Computing" specialization. It might be a little on the easy side though, its designed for students with no programming background. I found it easy and I had almost no programming experience past the codecademy.com python course. It is fun though, you learn python through programming simple games, at the end you make an asteroids clone. Unfortunately you can't just audit it but there is a session starting next month.

Principles of computing was good also. Its the second course in the specialization. It focused a little less on programming and more on math. I had to put in more time on it but thats probably because I haven't taken a math class since high school.

The last course in the specialization is "Algorithmic Thinking." I'm looking forward to taking it when it starts next week.

I don't have a degree or job in CS. I'm just learning programming for fun so these classes might not help you but I learned a lot from them.

[e90bmw]

You sound like you are getting there.

Grades and accolades mean nothing except to the fools in HR. I have hired and fired many folks. Truth and desire to solve a problem trump most accolades.

BUT - seriously think about a Masters degree. Its only like 1 1/2 more years and is well worth the cost.

Are you a veteran or former Military?

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I'm a hardware guy and have been in the industry for more than two decades and I have to agree with your previous post about garbage code and also this post.

A Master's Degree separates the men/women from the boys/girls.
It also teaches advanced topics that prepare one for more interesting work.

People seem to think coding is equivalent to "engineer" but that couldn't be further from reality. Engineering and computer science is about problem solving discipline. Coding in Objective C, C++ or anything else is secondary. The thought process to solve the problem is primary and the language is secondary.

As someone that has interviewed tons of candidates. I have never had anyone write code in an interview. I want to know how you think. I don't care if you have the syntax right, there are Lint tools for that.

[NorCalAthlete]

You sound like you are getting there.

Grades and accolades mean nothing except to the fools in HR. I have hired and fired many folks. Truth and desire to solve a problem trump most accolades.

BUT - seriously think about a Masters degree. Its only like 1 1/2 more years and is well worth the cost.

Are you a veteran or former Military?

I've definitely considered a Master's, but it's going to be breaking the bank just to finish my bachelor's with minimal debt at the moment. Will likely pursue it after a couple years making decent money, unless I can get a company to sponsor me through it. Yes, I'm a veteran. Lends itself to me being the outspoken one in class and monopolizing tutors' and professors' time out of class. Made fast friends with a few seniors and admin people who help keep me on track, and I've landed a couple old high school friends new jobs through my network.

The codecademy.com python course is good, at least it was for a beginner like me. Have you looked at any MOOCs? The certificate might not be worth much but a lot of them you can audit and just skip to the stuff your interested in.

I really enjoyed "An Introduction to Interactive Programming in Python" through coursera.org. Its the first course in a 3 part "Principles of Computing" specialization. It might be a little on the easy side though, its designed for students with no programming background. I found it easy and I had almost no programming experience past the codecademy.com python course. It is fun though, you learn python through programming simple games, at the end you make an asteroids clone. Unfortunately you can't just audit it but there is a session starting next month.

Principles of computing was good also. Its the second course in the specialization. It focused a little less on programming and more on math. I had to put in more time on it but thats probably because I haven't taken a math class since high school.

The last course in the specialization is "Algorithmic Thinking." I'm looking forward to taking it when it starts next week.

I don't have a degree or job in CS. I'm just learning programming for fun so these classes might not help you but I learned a lot from them.

I'm definitely a beginner with no coding background to speak of. One of the hardest things was the 46A and B classes teaching fundamentals, where you're in a 200+ person lecture hall struggling to pay attention while people around you are taking the course as an elective to check the block and talking and being disruptive. Seriously, there was a whole group that would sit in class and play starcraft and stuff against each other.

I've passed Calc 3 and Discrete math now, will be taking linear algebra starting next week, so the math isn't a huge problem for me right now. Figuring out how to apply it is, but once I realize "ok, I need to do XYZ" it falls into place. Connecting the dots between what I'm being taught in class and real world application is where things are lacking, but the book Cracking the Coding interview has been helping with that by seeing the type of questions asked. (I've also had a few friends at Intel, Apple, Nvidia, etc show me bits of code they work on so I can see how it's applied - shhhhhhhh). Not that I really understood what was going on with it trying to look at 2,000 lines when the biggest assignment I've had was maybe 100, but...lol.

I haven't looked at MOOCs much, if only because of the financial cost. I'm relying heavily on the post-9/11 GI bill at the moment for both school and living expenses and have been eating away at savings bit by bit for food, gas, and maintaining some semblance of a social life (and guns and ammo of course, but I may be putting a few of those up for sale in the next few months anyway.) I have, on the other hand, looked at some of the "coding for kids" type sites where they teach and reinforce fundamentals through game building. I like it, it makes sense, it connects the dots, and you have the option on everything to click "view code" and it'll show you correct syntax and everything.

One gripe I have with the way the courses have been taught so far is there's a massive lack of any feedback on assignments. Many professors delegate grading to their TAs, who simply copy and paste your code into Codecheck that runs a few tests on it. If it works, great, if not, 0 feedback. No "well, this was on the right track, you just had these checks out of order", no "this is completely off/wrong", no nothing. I've flat out had professors and TAs tell me to figure it out myself through Google, and while I understand that's realistically what I'd have to do in a work environment it makes me wonder where the hell my GI bill money is going for them to teach. I've also had professors go "I know we didn't cover this at all in my lectures, but it'll be on the final exam so you should figure it out for yourself before next week."

I'm a hardware guy and have been in the industry for more than two decades and I have to agree with your previous post about garbage code and also this post.

A Master's Degree separates the men/women from the boys/girls.
It also teaches advanced topics that prepare one for more interesting work.

People seem to think coding is equivalent to "engineer" but that couldn't be further from reality. Engineering and computer science is about problem solving discipline. Coding in Objective C, C++ or anything else is secondary. The thought process to solve the problem is primary and the language is secondary.

As someone that has interviewed tons of candidates. I have never had anyone write code in an interview. I want to know how you think. I don't care if you have the syntax right, there are Lint tools for that.

One comparison I've heard is "Engineers build the tools programmers use. Anyone can program, not everyone can engineer." Sounds kind of similar to what you guys are saying.

I definitely like that the thought process is key. One of the biggest draws of this as a career is being challenged intellectually. I kind of look at it like digital Legos. Once you know what all the pieces do and how they can go together, it's entirely up to you to build something. Programmers follow the instruction booklet, while engineers can combine sets, build something from a grab bin, etc. (Guess which one I was as a kid? :P Oh yeah, won a few competitions before I was 10 building some very solid and well put together ships).

Oh, and I'm looking at the F32 for my graduation present to myself (contingent upon landing a job anyway)

[AAShooter]

Think about taking some theory courses in CS: Automata and Complexity (P, NP, NP-Completeness, etc). Also some working knowledge of distributed systems/computing, networking (including wireless) and artificial intelligence is helpful.

[NorCalAthlete]

I'm definitely interested in artificial intelligence as an elective. Networking I believe can have value as well given how ubiquitous technology is and the rate it's proliferating. Everyone wants everything to work together...no reason Jarvis can't be a reality in the next 10 years. We already have phones that work with our heating/AC in our homes, the navigation in our cars, our GoPros, restaurants, etc. Where's it going to stop/go? I don't know, but I do know that information and network security will always have a place with it.

[AAShooter]

Also, look for course opportunities outside your school. Many online courses are available to round out your education. Also consider using JC's to finish your General Ed requirements (perhaps during the summer) to free up time to concentrate on CS skills.

[NorCalAthlete]

Doesn't really make sense to me to split between colleges for GE/CS classes. GI bill covers it either way, might as well not have to commute to two different places. Summer I've been maxing out either way. After this coming fall semester I'm pretty much down to just programming classes anyway.

Also, I dabble on this site a bit when I need to refresh my knowledge of something specific:

http://www.learnjavaonline.org/

URL says Java but they also have python, C, etc.

[Shadow]

Personally I find college and school a waste of money in these fields. Hands on is where it's at in CS and Programming in my experience. I have a friend that spent far too much time and dough on classes and certifications and all that crap. He has 10s of thousands in debt and doesn't know much. All college does is give you debt and a 4 year hang over. Fortunately, our industry has a ton of money in it right now, not sure so much in a year or two. Seems bubbly to me again. Pick a language, build an application that does something and you'll get a ton of experience, maybe even a product. Use that in your interviews.

If you do what you love in CS you'll go far, make a good living and be able to speak to it fluidly. It's that simple and that takes time.

I would go Python in this day and age. Ruby was and still is in some aspects in high demand as well, but it seems Python is trending high in demand right now, plus it's named after the best revolver ever made.

[pepsi2451]

I haven't looked at MOOCs much, if only because of the financial cost. I'm relying heavily on the post-9/11 GI bill at the moment for both school and living expenses and have been eating away at savings bit by bit for food, gas, and maintaining some semblance of a social life (and guns and ammo of course, but I may be putting a few of those up for sale in the next few months anyway.) I have, on the other hand, looked at some of the "coding for kids" type sites where they teach and reinforce fundamentals through game building. I like it, it makes sense, it connects the dots, and you have the option on everything to click "view code" and it'll show you correct syntax and everything.

All the courses from coursera.org and edx.org are free. Most courses offer some type of paid "verified" option where you have to submit your work with a webcam and at the end you get a verified certificate. If you take the free version your on the honor system and you just get an honor certificate (just a pdf document). I don't know if either certificate is really worth anything. I only take them to learn so I have just taken the free versions. Its nice because you can sign up for as many as you want and if you don't like them just drop out or only do the parts that interest you.

[steve91104]

Learn as much as you can about regular expressions, and these unix commands:

cat, top, ps, ls, find, grep, awk, which, locate, man

Learn how to open a file in vi, how to search for a word in the file, how to insert and delete text, how to bail out without saving and how to save and exit.

This is usually enough to get you an entry level position.

Also, in the interviews don't talk about coding right off the bat. First talk about what is required, get that nailed down, then draw a picture, then pseduo code.

[InFamous20]

Tagged

[e90bmw]

Personally I find college and school a waste of money in these fields. Hands on is where it's at in CS and Programming in my experience. I have a friend that spent far too much time and dough on classes and certifications and all that crap. He has 10s of thousands in debt and doesn't know much. All college does is give you debt and a 4 year hang over. Fortunately, our industry has a ton of money in it right now, not sure so much in a year or two. Seems bubbly to me again. Pick a language, build an application that does something and you'll get a ton of experience, maybe even a product. Use that in your interviews.

If you do what you love in CS you'll go far, make a good living and be able to speak to it fluidly. It's that simple and that takes time.

I would go Python in this day and age. Ruby was and still is in some aspects in high demand as well, but it seems Python is trending high in demand right now, plus it's named after the best revolver ever made.

If you believe all your friend got out of 4 years was debt and hangovers, maybe he/she did.

I may be a snob after going to school for engineering (twice - BSEE and MSEE) but you aren't an engineer or scientist until you have taken the courses, otherwise you are a hacker, etc.

An engineer is someone that understands the underlying principles and applies thought and methodology to solve problems. A computer scientist the same.

You might well be a programmer/hacker without the college, but you will never make it to Senior, Staff or forbid Principal. A certain level of educational background is expected and at some levels required.

Being able to write code in a particular language is but a small part of the profession.

Understanding architecture, data structures, re-entrant code, recursive code, memory allocation, classes, etc are not things you "just pick up".

YMMV, but if I'm hiring someone, you best believe the guy with the paper gets the job over the guy that doesn't. With no paper you probably won't even get the interview.

[orangeusa]

If you believe all your friend got out of 4 years was debt and hangovers, maybe he/she did.

I may be a snob after going to school for engineering (twice - BSEE and MSEE) but you aren't an engineer or scientist until you have taken the courses, otherwise you are a hacker, etc.

An engineer is someone that understands the underlying principles and applies thought and methodology to solve problems. A computer scientist the same.

You might well be a programmer/hacker without the college, but you will never make it to Senior, Staff or forbid Principal. A certain level of educational background is expected and at some levels required.

Being able to write code in a particular language is but a small part of the profession.

Understanding architecture, data structures, re-entrant code, recursive code, memory allocation, classes, etc are not things you "just pick up".

YMMV, but if I'm hiring someone, you best believe the guy with the paper gets the job over the guy that doesn't. With no paper you probably won't even get the interview.

Yup, you and I are in complete agreement. You can't get in the door (in this market) without a pedigree.

In response to your previous question, I can tell in a few minutes if a person has done hardware or firmware. And if they are truthful, I think how I can work around that.... Heck we had a 'how would you make a pot of coffee?."
That was one of our standard questions. Serioustalk. One gal who was a A+++ Masters working on PhD basically imploded. She got all weird and walked out of the interview. It's kinda like a 'are you normal' and can you take a joke question. Most folks said, are you serious? And if you are here's how I do it. lolz

I'm down on CS since I've seen so many bad coders over the years who get away with murder. It can be HARD to get a metric on how good a person designs/codes stuff.

But the easiest way is to ask them simple questions like - "What are you working on?", "How does it work?", "Can you simplify the answer?" , "Explain it like you were telling a family member how it works..."

Not that hard. I guess I'm suggesting that maybe an EE degree prepares you for both CS and EE jobs. I dunno. Worked well for me over the years....

Remember - in most high tech firms, VP's are EE's. I was a Director of E until our company got purchased.. lolz..

I learned the basics as a BSEE, specialized in MSEE, and learned how Engineering works at Rockwell (now Boeing).

.

[TacFan]

Yup, you and I are in complete agreement. You can't get in the door (in this market) without a pedigree.

In response to your previous question, I can tell in a few minutes if a person has done hardware or firmware. And if they are truthful, I think how I can work around that.... Heck we had a 'how would you make a pot of coffee?."
That was one of our standard questions. Serioustalk. One gal who was a A+++ Masters working on PhD basically imploded. She got all weird and walked out of the interview. It's kinda like a 'are you normal' and can you take a joke question. Most folks said, are you serious? And if you are here's how I do it. lolz

I'm down on CS since I've seen so many bad coders over the years who get away with murder. It can be HARD to get a metric on how good a person designs/codes stuff.

But the easiest way is to ask them simple questions like - "What are you working on?", "How does it work?", "Can you simplify the answer?" , "Explain it like you were telling a family member how it works..."

Not that hard. I guess I'm suggesting that maybe an EE degree prepares you for both CS and EE jobs. I dunno. Worked well for me over the years....

Remember - in most high tech firms, VP's are EE's. I was a Director of E until our company got purchased.. lolz..

I learned the basics as a BSEE, specialized in MSEE, and learned how Engineering works at Rockwell (now Boeing).

.

correction ... rockwell --> boeing --> pratt & whitney --> aerojet