Ammunition Question

[Hanse Davion]

I have come across several questions and wanted to get some input from this forum on the matter.

Basically, how does one distinguish between "handgun" ammunition and "rifle" ammunition, from a legal standpoint as well as a practical standpoint.

What comes to mind are books like Cartridges of the World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridges_of_the_World) that separate rifle and handgun ammunition, but do not give a definition or reason for doing so.

For example, how is it classified as such when it has the possibility to be used in both rifles and handguns? Common use? Designed for use? Marketed for use?

I welcome thoughts on the subject as well as any links to source material.

[hermosabeach]

What question are you asking?

Armor piercing hand gun ammo?

You can be 18 and buy what ammo?
22 LR for a pistol or rifle
9mm for a carbine?


Until the ATF makes a ruling, it is all interchangeable to me thanks to WECSOG.

[Hanse Davion]

Armor piercing is not relevant to what I am asking, nor is age. I guess more from a practical standpoint, why do books like Cartridges of the World make the distinction in the first place? Why do some ammunition vendors also make the distinction? Etc.

[Eddbot]

Here's the root question;
What's the difference between a rifle and a pistol?

Pistols have rifled barrels and rifles have pistol grips...

Seems like they're the same tool whose stocks are engineered to perform differing tasks.

A gun is a gun, the diameter of it's chamber shouldn't define it beyond caliber designation.

[Bansh88]

Handgun ammunition goes into a handgun, rifle into a rifle.
Submachine guns may use handgun ammo, some may use rifle ammo. The ammo itself could be categorized: hunting, precision, self defense, anti-personnel...
Your book breaks them up/categorizes them probably for ease of refernce. Like anything else

Sounds like your fishing for something..... What do you REALLY want to know

[Hanse Davion]

I am fishing, what for I do not know. As I stated in the OP, I was hoping for input from the members on this forum. The rifle/handgun distinction is a good start I think, as there really is no difference other than what the government itself classifies as a rifle or handgun to begin with.

[Hanse Davion]

Ill give this as an example- http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_rifle_bullets.htm

"Typical handgun muzzle velocities generally run from about 750 FPS (feet per second) to 1,300 FPS. This is true for all calibers, from .22 through .45. On the other hand, rifle velocities generally run from 1,900 FPS to 4,000 FPS."

From my experience however, isn't that really a matter of how long the barrel is and what powder is used?

[mr2ndamendment]

I think I know what you're asking, I'll take a crack at it.

The many calibers we have today are a product of military, hunting, LE, civilian, and competitive research and development all around the globe and throughout history. When the need arose, engineers refined and designed certain calibers to accomplish a specific task -one of many examples is Browning designing the .45 ACP specifically for the 1911, and it being later taken and used in sub machine guns (like the UMP45) and rifles (Hi-Points, Beretta CX4, etc.).

Some calibers were made to be used in a rifle at one time in history but many years later in a different place and time, people took it and used it to make a pistol. Some pistol calibers were used to chamber rifles with (9mm AR15 comes to mind).

Most of the name of a caliber, like the .22 "Long Rifle," simply shows what the designers were making it for and even though the names remain the same the usage has probably expanded to guns it was never originally intended to be fired from. I think the name of a cartridge is more of a testament to the people involved in its creation and the purpose they envisioned it for -it's a snapshot from the time it was created in, not an accurate gauge as to what it can and cannot be used in.

As a side note why he mentioned age:

In terms of legality things get weird because if I'm 18 years old and just bought a 10/22 as my first rifle, I want to buy .22 LR to go shoot. .22 LR is of course a popular pistol chambering, which I cannot own since I'm not at this point 21. At least in California, the vendor I believe is required to ask if the ammo is going to be used in a rifle or a pistol. That is definitely something I need a legal nut to clarify, but if the vendor knows .22 LR is being purchased by someone between 18-20 and it's going to be used in a handgun, they must refuse the sale -that much I know for sure.

[Pardini]

I think the difference is what the original cartridge was designed for. Rifle or pistol. A recent example is the 17 HMR and HM 2. They are considered rifle rounds because they were introduced in a rifle. After their intoduction handguns were designed to fire that same rifle round.

Pretty sure that train of thought holds all the way back through history. 32/20, 38/40, 44/40 etc.

[Eddbot]

At least in California...

Indeed, I believe this is what he was getting at.

When and how did there become a legal distinction between rifle and handgun ammunition when the cartridge itself could be use in rifles OR handguns?

This is evidence of lawmakers creating laws without understanding what they are legislating.

[Hanse Davion]

Well its true for federal law as well. 18 USC 922 I believe. But the law aside, it seems as if within the firearm community as well there is a distinction, and I wanted to know where that comes from. Even with cartridges like the 17 HMR, however, the goal was not necessarily to produce a rifle specific round, rather a strong ballistic performance similar to the 5mm.

[JMP]

Ask CA State Senator Kevin DeLeon. He has experience on this issue.

[hermosabeach]

Primers and other things

. I guess more from a practical standpoint, why do books like Cartridges of the World make the distinction in the first place? Why do some ammunition vendors also make the distinction? Etc.

Guess-
Vendors can't sell handgun ammo to those under 21

Re loaders- and Loading Books/ Cartridge Books

Rifle primers tend to be harder than handgun primers and need to ignite more powder.

Rifles also tend to use more extruded powder vs flake for pistols.


For the user when looking at calibers- flipping page by page makes more sense as I can look at:

When reloading....What cartridges use the same powders?
Can I buy one powder to reload .223, .270, .308 & 30-06?

Can I use the size and type primer for the above cartridges?


Separating reloading books into Rifle and Pistol makes sense to me...


Does this make a bit more sense?

[Eddbot]

Text of 18 USC 922 (b)(1):

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver -
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the
licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than
eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is
other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or
rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

Q: Does a customer have to be a certain age to buy firearms or ammunition from a licensee?
Yes. Under the GCA, long guns and long gun ammunition may be sold only to persons 18 years of age or older. Sales of handguns and ammunition for handguns are limited to persons 21 years of age and older. Although some State and local ordinances have lower age requirements, dealers are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA. If State law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age, the dealer must observe the higher age requirement.
[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

Q: May a licensee sell interchangeable ammunition such as .22 cal. rimfire to a person less than 21 years old?
Yes, provided the buyer is 18 years of age or older, and the dealer is satisfied that it is for use in a rifle. If the ammunition is intended for use in a handgun, the 21-year-old minimum age requirement is applicable.
[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

So the burden of proof is essentially placed on the dealer.

I know it's a little off topic but the distinction between rifle and pistol ammo in legality and in the community seems unnecessary.

[RR.44]

The reason that handgun ammo and rifle ammo are separated in that book is because back when those books were conceived not many if any handguns were chambered in rifle rounds, that is a modern phenomenon due to the metallurgy technology that exists today. Rifle caliber handguns are more available today than they were say 35 to 40 years ago when books like the one you mentioned were being written.