Yugo M59/66 SKS C&R status in CA

[CowtownBallin]

Hey guys,
I have a Yugo M59 SKS (pre-GL one) and I wanted to pick up an M59/66..I see them online in unissued/new condition, and I'd really like to add to the collection. I realize that the 59/66 has a grenade launcher that does not comply with California laws. However, modifying the grenade launcher voids its C&R status.

My question is, can a person with a C&R licence purchase an unmodified M59/66 and get it converted after the transfer? How would that process work? I figured since C&R licence holders are exempt from the Brady laws and what not, there might be additional perks. Thanks in advance.

[CowtownBallin]

Hey guys,
I have a Yugo M59 SKS (pre-GL one) and I wanted to pick up an M59/66..I see them online in unissued/new condition, and I'd really like to add to the collection. I realize that the 59/66 has a grenade launcher that does not comply with California laws. However, modifying the grenade launcher voids its C&R status.

My question is, can a person with a C&R licence purchase an unmodified M59/66 and get it converted after the transfer? How would that process work? I figured since C&R licence holders are exempt from the Brady laws and what not, there might be additional perks. Thanks in advance.

[imported_Telpierion]

Well since the 59/66 is not at least 50 years old you would need to go through a CA FFL regardless of C&R status so it's really a moot point.

[icormba]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CowtownBallin:
However, modifying the grenade launcher voids its C&R status.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, the whole thing that gets me is how can Century sell the modified M59/66? The C&R status is gone, right? I go to the Century website and it's not listed as a C&R and it's not listed as a regular Semi-auto either... so what is it, hmmmm

[Blue]

If you look on auctionarms.com or gunbroker.com theres a few people in there cutting the 'nade launcher off and selling it as a C&R anyways to the people in CA.

[icormba]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blue84s10:
If you look on auctionarms.com or gunbroker.com theres a few people in there cutting the 'nade launcher off and selling it as a C&R anyways to the people in CA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's the scarry part! If you have your 03FFL and buy one... you could be in trouble. You need to log your purchases into your bound book & would be caught on at least 2 things...
1) you cannot purchase or own a m59/66 in California
2) It's not over 50 years old, like the others have said.

now, another question... you have a M59 logged in your book, how does anyone know if you bought it person to person or if it's shipped to you? Would the seller have that noted?

[gidddy169]

Couldn't you just buy the m59/66 and take the gernade launcher off out of state and just leave the threaded muzzle when you bring it back in with your 03? I think this is completly legal.

[imported_Telpierion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1) you cannot purchase or own a m59/66 in California
2) It's not over 50 years old, like the others have said. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you can own it if the GL is removed or disabled, I've seen several with sheet metal wrapped around and welded on. It's ugly I'd just go with the threaded barrel. Point two wouldn't raise any flags. A licensed collector needs to log all C&R firearms they acquire in their book regardless of the manor they are acquired. Not all C&R firearms are over 50 years old.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">how does anyone know if you bought it person to person or if it's shipped to you? Would the seller have that noted? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There would be no way to tell. You input the person you disposed it to but that would be the same if you picked it up in person as if it was shipped to them.

Does anybody know if there is a specific ATF ruling as to whether or not removing/altering the GL removes C&R status? While it isn't original configuration they do tend to be a bit arbitrary. But unless they have ruled it doesn't assume it does.

[icormba]

Telpierion, your mis-quoting a bit...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by icormba:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blue84s10:
If you look on auctionarms.com or gunbroker.com theres a few people in there cutting the 'nade launcher off and selling it as a C&R anyways to the people in CA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's the scarry part! If you have your 03FFL and buy one... you could be in trouble. You need to log your purchases into your bound book & would be caught on at least 2 things...
1) you cannot purchase or own a m59/66 in California
2) It's not over 50 years old, like the others have said.

now, another question... you have a M59 logged in your book, how does anyone know if you bought it person to person or if it's shipped to you? Would the seller have that noted? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Blue84s10 mentioned auctionarms or gunbroker (online). I was quoting that you cannot buy those online with your 03 just like you mentioned in your 1st post.

and who said you CAN own it? it says right on the DOJ site that "may not be purchased, possessed, imported" "or kept for sale without a permit.".

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/zastava.htm

so it's obvious someone must have gotten special permission to sell them in California. Nothing says we, as FFL 03 holders, can buy them and bring them into the State after we take the GL off. It's still considered a "Zastava SKS Carbines 59/66" and if it wasn't I wouldn't think the FEDS would not allow it to be sold? not that I know for sure, maybe California Penal Code section 12301(a)(4). states that if it's in-operatable it's ok? hopefully Bill has that answer

Yes I own 3 of the sleeved wrapped Yugos I bought from Irvington Arms, & no I couldn't use my 03 FFL.

I'm not saying I'm right, because I'm proably not... it's just one of those "what a stupid law" things. & How can I get one of these 22 mm grenades anyway?

[CowtownBallin]

Guys, the 59/66 has C&R status, despite it being made in the 60s and 70s, it is a replica of a model that is older than 50 years, the original Russian Simonov 45.

I guess I'll find a seller with a 59/66 and ask him to chop the GL off for me before sending it. I'll take it to my local gunsmith and have him recrown it and/or place a sweet-looking muzzle brake on it.

Thanks for all the advice.

It's hard to find one in the condition I want for the price that I want AND have it CA legal And this is a very important purchase for me, just like that Zastava Model 70 pistol I was told I can't purchase in CA either. I'm from former Yugoslavia, so these are more than just weapons, especially for my dad. They're a reminder of a time long gone. That sort of thing

[imported_Telpierion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Telpierion, your mis-quoting a bit... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I only meant just having it in your book wouldn't give you away because it could have gotten there legally. As for not being able to buy/own one in CA, to the best of my knowledge the 59/66 is not specifically mentioned in any law. It is a destructive device because it fits the definition in the law. If you removed the GL it would no longer be a destructive device. Several distributors offer CA legal 59/66s. Not proof by any means but I figure they would have been caught and forced to stop by now. I also saw them in one of Turner's ads a while back. They were listed as 59s w/threaded barrel which would make the neutered 59/66s. But of course I could be wrong about this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Guys, the 59/66 has C&R status, despite it being made in the 60s and 70s, it is a replica of a model that is older than 50 years, the original Russian Simonov 45. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to clarify it is C&R because the ATF has ruled that it is. Replica's of models made over 50 years ago are not C&R.

[bear]

They sure had a bunch of these for sale at the last two gun shows I went to, Cow Palace and Vallejo. They ran about $289 to $329 (WAY more than the $89 you can get them on the internet.)

But they are sure selling them with the grenade launcher. I thought it was pretty odd, but there they are.

Next show is May 21st at the Cow Palace, if you want to buy one from a dealer.

[bwiese]

One thing that hasn't been discussed here is that there are some (Fed) limits to modifying/ changing a C&R rifle's configuration.

This is completely separate from how you acquired the gun - via your C&R FFL or via a regular gun dealer w/10 day wait, etc.

I'm fairly murky on this. But I believe that it loses C&R status if parts are replaced/ removed, etc. Since gun was apparently imported for C&R purposes it can't be rendered into a form non-importable (i.e., nonC&R) by anyone - importer or possessor, it seems. I'm not sure if the FH/GL removal would count or not - that could be an 'accessory', but things like replacing the orig wood stock with a RamLine synthetic stock likely would!!

I think if there are changes that end up removing C&R status from this rifle, then it'd have to be rendered into "USA form" by playing the 10-or-less key imported parts game.

More/better info is on SKS Survivor's forum...

Bill Wiese
San Jose

[imported_Telpierion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DRH:
Cowtownballin and Telpieron, Just because the two firearm are classified as a Federal C&R does not allow you to purchase them in the state of California with your C&R 03 FFL license. The state of California has additional restrictions that require the firearm to be at least fifty years old. If it is not fifty years old it must go through a 01 FFL just like any other firearm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said you didn't need to go throuh an 01 FFL. You can take actual possession of any C&R firearm out of state and bring it back, assuming no AW features.

[imported_Telpierion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm fairly murky on this. But I believe that it loses C&R status if parts are replaced/ removed, etc. Since gun was apparently imported for C&R purposes it can't be rendered into a form non-importable (i.e., nonC&R) by anyone - importer or possessor, it seems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I said earkier the ATF tends to be rather arbitrary as to what will make things no longer C&R. Modifying or making a C&R import into a non-C&R is a fairly common practice. It's know as spoerterizing or bubbaizing depending on who you talk to.