Gun Research for RPG

[slayrre7]

Greetings,

The only knowledge I have about guns was the information obtained when I got my conceal permit for my handgun. Outside of that.... I honestly know very little about guns (but am in the process of enthusiastically learning).

In the meantime, I'm reaching out to the community for some general information on guns that I plan to use for an "almost completed" section of an RPG (role playing game) I have written and tested. I would like to add as much authentic information in the gun sections as possible.

So... with that... I would appreciate any feedback from "those in the know" on the following questions:

1) What are the most common calibers / number of shots (magazine/cartridge) / range / and potential damage (relative to other calibers)... on the following weapons:

Revolver
Pistol (auto & semi-auto)

Rifles (auto & semi-auto)
Slide/Pump
Bolt Action
Sniper

Submachine Guns
Machine Guns

Shotguns
Double Barrel Shotguns


I know that's a lot, but anything you can contribute to any of the guns would be greatly appreciated. This information will be put into the game Demons & Saints (www.DemonsandSaints.com) for future players.

Also... if I am posting this in the wrong place... please let me know so I can move it to the right forum.

Thank you in advance for any help you can provide in my research of firearms.

Michael

[67goat]

There is a lot to consider. You won't get all the answers in one thread. Semi-auto pistols, 9mm, .40, 357Sig, 10mm, .45 and others of similar size have very similar effects on the human body (which is to say they all do about the same damage) assuming you are using hollow point (slower rounds like the .45 are better if round nose). Some are better than others for nonhuman barrier penetration (357Sig), but all will generally fail against fairly basic body armor.

Smaller rounds, like 22lr, can be deadly with a critical hit. However, hits to the body may be lethal, but could take hours (or even days) to finally kill. Hits that don't strike any main organs or arteries can often be ignored by those that are shot (it hurts, but not debilitating).

Anything below a 9mm is generally considered to be better than nothing, but a crap shoot. 9mm and above is more consistent, but short of some bigger revolver rounds out of a long enough barrel, handguns are not great at stopping determined attackers.

Revolvers are pretty much the same story, but there are some larger rounds that when fired from the right gun are closer to rifle rounds (500 S&W).

Shooting handgun rounds out of a short barrel often takes a lot of the speed/power out of the bullet. This usually means less penetration.

[skyhanger00]

There's this saying: A handgun bullet breaks bones, a rifle bullet shatters them.
Another quote: The only use of a handgun is to use it to fight your way to your rifle.

Handgun bullets tend to be subsonic or transonic, rifle bullets have much more energy and typically are 2x-3x faster than the speed of sound and can only be stopped by hard plates (soft bulletproof armor is generally useless against rifles).

You should go to this interesting site, some guy did a bunch of backyard ballistics experiments.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

[ScottyXbones]

This sounds great! Its hard to narrow down common calibers, because there are several really popular ones for each type of gun. I'd say there's usually a 60/40 split of people that shoot light vs heavy calibers. This isn't a bad thing though, I love games that have a lot of guns and custom options (Metal gear, anyone?)



1) What are the most common calibers / number of shots (magazine/cartridge) / range / and potential damage (relative to other calibers)... on the following weapons:

Revolver - Holds 6 shots, can be double or single action (affects accuracy and speed of follow up shots) and have a swing out barrel or loading gate. Range varies, a 9" barrel single action revolver in .38 spc can hit bullseyes at 50 yards, a subcompact 3" .45 acp... my effective range is about 10 yards if I take my time.

Light: 357mag/38special, (357 mag was designed to shoot through cars)
Heavy: 44mag/44special (44 mag is so powerful its not particularly fun to shoot)
Artillery: 454 Casull or 500 s&w mag (Good for headshots on demons! People carry these for protection against bears)


Pistol (auto & semi-auto) - 9mm pistols have a standard mag size of 17 rounds, .45 acp varies. In a 1911 single stack, 8 rounds, in a Springfield XD, 14 rounds. The .45 was designed to put down drugged up attackers.

Light: 9mm,
Heavy: .45acp,




Rifles (auto & semi-auto): AR15 and AK? 5.56 Nato and 7.62 respectively. 30 round mags are standard for both. I also like to see some additional rifle options in a game, like FAL/G3 or AR10 (in 308), other 5.56mm rifles like G36, Famas/Tavor, SCAR/ACR. For accuracy and range, it all depends on the platform, shooter and shooting position, there is lots of discussion about this on the net. Damage also varies, the 7.62 obviously does more, and does a better job of shooting through barriers. The 5.56 was designed to have low recoil and maim the enemy, so they would have to occupy their medics and other soldiers in removing the wounded from the battlefield.

Slide/Pump - Uhh... lever action? .30-30, not so common post wild-west era.


Bolt Action Sniper: These usually have 4-5 round mags. Either of these put down big game in one hit.
Heavy:.308 Nato, max range is 1300 yards, but you'd have to be a hell of a shot. Even 600 yards is very challenging.
Heavier: .338 Laupa Mag - Let's bring back the AWP to gaming, max effective range is 1,910 yards!!!


Submachine Guns
I don't think we could not have a game without an MP5/UZI (9mm), FN P90 (the less common 5.7), etc. 30 round mags are standard, the p90 holds 50.


Machine Guns - M249, the SAW in 5.56. The original version is heavy as f-ck though, there are several variants, google-fu your way to the one you want. These are really accurate in short bursts and controllable in full-auto. Obviously, high potential to turn monsters into swiss cheese with this one. Fires 200 round belts.



Shotguns - 12 ga is standard, but the ammo for shotguns is complex. Birdshot uses a lot of small lead balls, Buckshot uses 8-9 big ones. In addition the size of the shell (2.75", 3", 3.5") influences how big of a bang it makes. You have a lot of options when it comes to shotguns, There are basic pump actions like the Mossberg 500/Remington 870, those will hold 5-6 rounds. I'm a fan of the competition short barreled semi-autos, like the Remington Versamax which can shoot the 3.5" shells and hold 10 rounds.

Light: 12 ga, 2.75" #8 shot, good for 30 yards against soft targets
Heavy: 12 ga. 3.5" #00 shot, 40 yards, each ball of shot is almost equivalent to a .380acp, but a little slower. Will turn demons into mashed potatoes at close range.



Double Barrel Shotguns
Same loads, damage and range, obviously limited to 2 shots.




I hope this helps a bit!

[Rosereader]

First off, there is no standard for civilian arms, at all. And the "most common" us entirely dependent on the region in question.

1) What are the most common calibers: That is dependent on the area you are in. Regionally it can be completely different. / number of shots (magazine/cartridge) / range / and potential damage (relative to other calibers)... on the following weapons:

Revolver: Most revolvers are chambered in .22lr, .38 special/.357 Magnum, .44 special/.44 Rem. Magnum and the like. However there are plenty of hand cannons out there chambered for leviathans like the .460 magnum or .500 Supermagnum, as well as oddballs like the .41 Magnum and .45 Colt. Oh, and weird ones like the 9x19mm Barracuda. Traditionally the standard for revolvers is six, but that's hardly a rule. Revolvers usually range between five and nine, depending on the caliber, but there are those that have fewer and more capacity.

Effective range is relative. Asking what the range of a weapon is... Doesn't really work. It depends on environment, the shooter, particular barrel length/quality, ammunition, et cetera. Emphasis on the shooter. Damage is much the same, though for basically all of them we can say that where it hits is a helluva lot more important to what it hits with. If you want to look up specific load specs for kinetic energy imparted you can but external ballistics dont act in such simple manners.

Pistol (auto & semi-auto): Most automatic pistols will be chambered in .22lr, 9x19mm, .380, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, though there is infinite room for variance here. Capacity for automatics is screwwy. Larger calibers and mouse guns all have smaller capacities, usually between six and ten. Speaking of TEN we have our legal limits. Usually service pistols take between 15 and 20 per magazine, but there are no real limits, most higher capacity weapons hit 30 though.

Rifles (auto & semi-auto): The most common semi-auto chamberings you'll find in the U.S. are .22lr, .308 Winchester (7.62x51mm), 5.56x45mm (.223 Remington), 7,62x39mm, 5,45x39mm, and 30-06. But again, these are not hard and fast rules by any stretch of the imagination.

(Slide/: ... What?) Pump: Pump rifles are fairly uncommon, but are usually in pistol calibers (magnum class, see your revolvers for examples) or 30-30.

Bolt Action: You have no idea what you ask. Bolt actions exist in nearly every production caliber ever made. Hell, you can get bolt rifles chambered for wildcat cartridges that you have to make yourself! This goes for all firearms but bolt guns in particular.

Lever actions get no love with you? 30-30 is a popular rifle caliber but they're mostly in magnum pistol calibers nowadays. Don't let Scotty fool you, they make millions of them to this day and they are hugely popular.

Sniper: "Sniper" rifles aren't a category. Weapons of this type tend to be semiautomatic or bolt action weapons that exhibit a higher degree of accuracy than their counterparts. It used to be that weapons that were particularly accurate out of the factory were scoped and fielded but nowadays we build weapons for the task, a practice that we can thank the Soviets and the Dragunov for.

Submachine Guns: By definition pistol calibers, look at your semi-autos for inspiration.

Machine Guns: Same as your semi-automatic rifles. It's only a difference of an automatic sear between a Semi-auto rifle and machine gun.

Shotguns: 12 and 20 gauges are the most common, along with .410 bore. You can also get 10 and 16 gauges if you look around but ammunition is impossible to find.
Double Barrel Shotguns: Same as any other type of shotgun, mate. Action type and chambering aren't intrinsically linked.


I know that's a lot, but anything you can contribute to any of the guns would be greatly appreciated. This information will be put into the game Demons & Saints (www.DemonsandSaints.com) for future players.


Michael... It's great your asking questions, it really is. But firearms don't follow rigid rules. They're more fluid in nature. Everyone and their brother has designed a firearm at some point in history, and they're mostly all different. That said if you have any more questions feel free to send me a Private Message on this site, I'll answer all I can.

[67goat]

You take that back. .45 Colt is no oddball.




The missing link, maybe....

[Rosereader]

I said it was an oddball, I never said it wasn't brilliant. One of my all-time favorite calibers, actually. Though I was going to leave both it and the .454 Casull out as I had mentioned the .460 magnum. Large powder capacity, friendly straight-walled case, a myriad of bullet options... One of the better choices for an enthusiast, but not great for people who rely on factory ammunition.

[BruinGuy]

Slayrre7 - you should check out a game (rpg combat system) that came out in the late 80s called "Phoenix Command." It was extremely detailed in its system and went to great lengths to accurately represent firearm combat.

Unfortunately it was so detailed that it was difficult to use in an rpg, because combat could take hours to resolve and the damage system, well it too was realistic which meant that characters dropped like flies.

Anyway, I'm sure you can find copies on ebay and the equipment manual should be quite useful as a sourcebook starter for your own game system, from which you can decide how much detail you want to put into the guns versus the game.

[Noonanda]

I was just gonna recommend phoenix command for reference as well but bruinguy nailed it

[hermosabeach]

This forum is a gold mine.

Search is awkward but works.

[Gomphe]

If you are familiar with the old Hero gaming system, they had an extensive and fairly accurate write up on conventional and small arms weapons. I believe that the write up also included the stats of the weapons.

You also might want to try looking up GURPS as well. Hope this helps.

-Gomphe

[Ronin2]

The only use of a handgun is to use it to fight your way to your rifle.

Nailed it!

[slayrre7]

Thank you everyone for all the information. I felt like I learned a lot of cool interesting new stuff that I hadn't heard before... a lot of great insight.

Also, the link to the boxotruth was fun to read... completely enlightened me on what to expect from using a shotgun! Also, I've placed an order for Phoenix Command... looking forward to jumping right in and figuring out what information would fit the RPG I'm finishing up.

Again, much appreciation for the response... very helpful!

Michael

[slayrre7]

This sounds great! Its hard to narrow down common calibers, because there are several really popular ones for each type of gun. I'd say there's usually a 60/40 split of people that shoot light vs heavy calibers. This isn't a bad thing though, I love games that have a lot of guns and custom options (Metal gear, anyone?)
..............................
I hope this helps a bit!

Thank you for taking the time to write this up... its going to be very helpful.

Michael

[slayrre7]

Slayrre7 - you should check out a game (rpg combat system) that came out in the late 80s called "Phoenix Command." It was extremely detailed in its system and went to great lengths to accurately represent firearm combat.

Unfortunately it was so detailed that it was difficult to use in an rpg, because combat could take hours to resolve and the damage system, well it too was realistic which meant that characters dropped like flies.

Anyway, I'm sure you can find copies on ebay and the equipment manual should be quite useful as a sourcebook starter for your own game system, from which you can decide how much detail you want to put into the guns versus the game.

Went straight to Amazon after reading your post and ordered the book! Can't wait to start reading it and mining the information on firearms. Thank you!