Out of State Purchase

[tunaman]

I travel regularly for work. This week I find myself in Oklahoma where private sales are cash and carry.

As a California resident it appears that I can buy a gun there and bring it back to California with me. How am I wrong in that belief because I feel like I am probably wrong?

How does that work with the whole bullet button thing. If I buy a gun that does not have a bullet button, can I bring it back and then have it converted once I have it here?

[edgerly779]

You cannot take possesion of a firearm. You can purchase and have shipped to ffl here and and do the dros.
librarian will probably give the best answer.




















y

[curtru]

That would be an illegal purchase I think since you don't live in said state.

Sent from my AP-7S118 using Tapatalk 4

[Librarian]

Right - the long answer is stickied in the handgun forum, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=503873

Cliff's Notes: that would be a Federal Felony - Do Not Do.

[fiddletown]

...This week I find myself in Oklahoma where private sales are cash and carry.

As a California resident it appears that I can buy a gun there and bring it back to California with me. How am I wrong in that belief because I feel like I am probably wrong?...

You're up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine (plus a lifetime loss of gun rights) wrong. See Librarian's post just above.

And here is the whole federal law story on interstate firearms transfer (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses and the subject of dual residency):

1. Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).
   
   
2. In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.
   
   
3. In the case of long guns (i. e., rifles and shotguns), it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.C] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.
   
   
4. There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.
   
   
5. The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).
   
   
6. Here's what the statutes say:

   18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts
   
   
   ...
   
   (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
   

   (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,
   
   (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and
   
   (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

   
   ...
   
   (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
   

   (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
   
   (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

   
   ....
   
   (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
   ...
   
   (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph
   

   (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and
   
   (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

   
   ...

[Quiet]

And the Federal laws that prohibits this have been in place for about 45 years.

[DRSTG]

From NRA ILA Alerts:

"Tomorrow, December 18, the Wisconsin assembly Natural Resources Committe will hear an NRA-supported bill to expand interstate long gun sales. Assembly Bill 368 would align Wisconsin with forty other states that already allow their residents to purchase rifles and shotguns in non-contiguous states, provided that the purchase or transfer complies with state and federal law."

Anyone know which "forty other states" already allow this? Surely not the PRK.

[sammass]

So, IF I walk into the CMP store, and purchase an M1 Garand, AND I have a FFL03 & a CA Cert of Eligibility, they will ship it to my home, no fuss, no muss?

"California Rifle Purchases. Effective 1 Jan 2014, California residents who order rifles from the CMP must provide FFL information (shipping address) for the licensed firearms dealer in CA to whom the rifle will be shipped.

OR

If they want the rifle shipped to their residence, must provide CMP with a copy of the customer's individual C&R license AND a copy of their current CA Certificate of Eligibility."

What is the CA Cert of Eligibility the CMP is referring to? Is that the Personal Firearms Eligibility Check or some other form? I am getting lost in the good advise and the bafflegab legalese of the BATF & CA AG's sites.

I originally thought of just bringing it home on the plane, but 5 yrs in the Graybar Motel is not how I want to spend my retired years. :-)

Also, where do I find the list of C&R Firearms? Is it any weapon over 50 years old not otherwise banned or just one's listed?

Any advise on the subject would be appreciated. Thanks.

Sam

[Quiet]

So, IF I walk into the CMP store, and purchase an M1 Garand, AND I have a FFL03 & a CA Cert of Eligibility, they will ship it to my home, no fuss, no muss?

... originally thought of just bringing it home on the plane...

Because you are a FFL, under Federal laws you can acquire firearms in other states.
As a Type 03-FFL, this only applies to C&R firearms.

Therefore, in your scenario you can take possession of the C&R firearm and travel back to CA with it. Within 5 days of returning to CA, you will have to "report" the C&R firearm to CA DOJ. [PC 27565]



Penal Code 27565
(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:
(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.
(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the department.

[fiddletown]

So, IF I walk into the CMP store, and purchase an M1 Garand, AND I have a FFL03 & a CA Cert of Eligibility, they will ship it to my home, no fuss, no muss?

"California Rifle Purchases. Effective 1 Jan 2014, California residents who order rifles from the CMP must provide FFL information (shipping address) for the licensed firearms dealer in CA to whom the rifle will be shipped.

OR

If they want the rifle shipped to their residence, must provide CMP with a copy of the customer's individual C&R license AND a copy of their current CA Certificate of Eligibility."

....

CMP is different from anyone else. It has unique rules under the federal statutes establishing the program (36 USC 40701 -- 40733).

Note especially 36 USC 40732 (emphasis added):

(1) The corporation may sell, at fair market value, caliber .22 rimfire and caliber .30 surplus rifles, ammunition, repair parts and other supplies necessary for target practice to a citizen of the United States who is over 18 years of age and who is a member of a gun club affiliated with the corporation.

(2) Except as provided in section 40733 of this title, sales under this subsection are subject to applicable United States, State, and local law. In addition to any other requirement, the corporation shall establish procedures to obtain a criminal records check of the individual with United States Government and State law enforcement agencies.

(A) a felony; or

(B) a violation of section 922 of title 18.

And 36 USC 40733:

[Ritchie8719]

What is the California code that prevents me from buying a gun from a FFL in Wyoming, for instance, and bringing it back to my home state, California?


ONLY TALKING ABOUT LONG GUNS, SORRY.

[HappyCamper781]

Did you miss the part of the discussion that states that Federal, not state law requires that transfer requirements in BOTH states must be met, and gun can only be shipped to FFL in your home state of residence?

[Ritchie8719]

Did you miss the part of the discussion that states that Federal, not state law requires that transfer requirements in BOTH states must be met, and gun can only be shipped to FFL in your home state of residence?

Did not miss it.

In the case of long guns (i. e., rifles and shotguns), it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.C] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

Meaning the one here (Wyoming, or the one there California), not necessarily both.

Looking for clarification, not derision, btw. Is there a California statute to be broken?

In my first post I should have said long gun. ONLY TALKING ABOUT LONG GUNS, SORRY. Cali legal too, of course.

[Quiet]

Federal laws state transfer needs to comply with the laws of both states.

CA laws state firearms need to be transferred through a FFL dealer licensed by CA.

Therefore, as a CA resident, all firearms must be transferred through a CA FFL dealer.


18 USC 922
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

Penal Code 26500
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless the person has been issued a license pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

Penal Code 26700
As used in this division, and in any other provision listed in Section 16580, "dealer," "licensee," or "person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive" means a person who satisfies all of the following requirements:
(a) Has a valid federal firearms license.
(b) Has any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required by local government.
(c) Has a valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of Equalization.
(d) Has a certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) Has a license issued in the format prescribed by subdivision (c) of Section 26705.
(f) Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in Section 26715.

Penal Code 27545
Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).

[Ritchie8719]

well there ya go. I will point out

(c) Has a valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of Equalization.
(d) Has a certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) Has a license issued in the format prescribed by subdivision (c) of Section 26705.
(f) Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in Section 26715.

To my friend in Wyoming. Thanks Quiet.