HK/CETME mini build party beta test Qs

[ptoguy2002]

Inspired by fedup and now drickel, and now that HK flats appear to be on the horizon, and kits available, some questions:

How many out there would be interested in a build party for HK or cetme rifles, and where are you located (nor-cal, mid-cal, or so-cal)?

Do you have a kit and flat already, and what kind (G3, -33, cetme, etc)?
Is the barrel still in your trunnion on your kit?
Flat or stripped receiver?

Are you aware of the process and issues (and HOW WELL do you know) on these kinds of builds (eg: semi auto shelf, fcg mods required, welding required, etc)?

Do you know how to weld, have you welded before and can pick it up again quick, or would you be totally new at it (mig, tig, whats that) ?

These aren't nearly as popular as AKs, I'm trying to gauge interest, who is serious about it, and would would be needed.

[Q]

I'm interested, no flat or kit right now.

So-Cal

Don't know how to build them.

I've taken a class for gas welding and did some mig when I was working on cars.

[PolishMike]

I would be interested in a socal build. Dont have any parts.

Proficient in oxy/acetylene, arc, and mig welding (no tig unfortunately)

[totenkopf]

i am interested,but am in nor cal.

[bridgeport]

In my opinion, you are asking the wrong questions. The question should be,
who has the skills and knowlege to do the build correctly. Just knowing how to bend sheet metal, or, how to weld, does not make a person capable of
doing a build right. This is why gunsmithing is its own distinct craft. Gunsmithing in and of itself though can be inclusive or may not be, of the skills needed to work on a particular type of firearm. Five people in a room
with some knowlege do not equal one with the right knowlege.
If you choose to proceed by trial and error, may I suggest buying a few extra flats and kits, this would help to bring a prospective builder up to speed, along with some time and tools.

[ptoguy2002]

In my opinion, you are asking the wrong questions. The question should be,
who has the skills and knowlege to do the build correctly. Just knowing how to bend sheet metal, or, how to weld, does not make a person capable of
doing a build right. This is why gunsmithing is its own distinct craft. Gunsmithing in and of itself though can be inclusive or may not be, of the skills needed to work on a particular type of firearm. Five people in a room
with some knowlege do not equal one with the right knowlege.
If you choose to proceed by trial and error, may I suggest buying a few extra flats and kits, this would help to bring a prospective builder up to speed, along with some time and tools.

Don't quite understand where this is coming from, I agree mostly with what you are saying, but you could also say that knowing how to bend sheet metal and crush rivets does not make a person capable........., and yet there are a lot of shop-dumb people making working AKs these days. And I am by no means proceeding by trial and error. And yes they take more skill than an AK to build, but are still pretty darned simple to build, the welding just needs to get done right.

[bridgeport]

Well, lets start with this. allowing for the fact that an AK type build is one of the easier builds, I have seen several botch jobs, and many with minor problems that were just able to be worked out. Now that many people have more experience with the AK type build, the quality is going up, but the learning curve has been steep for many over the past few years.
Perhaps if you searched the history on this site, you would find some of my posts on building the HK style receiver. The HK type is totally doable, but
much more difficult and not even in the ballpark with the ease and simplicity
of the AK type. Their are a lot of little kinks to the bending , fitting and welding which are best worked out before building, such as where heat sinks
can be placed and or what parts will act as a heat sink on its own (trunnion)
as well a proper front end alignment which can be easily thrown off if you dont know what to look for or how heat will affect the parts. All of this has nothing to do with technical skill. A man who burns 6010 on pipe all day knows how to weld for sure, but sheet and pipe and sheet receivers are different animals. A sheet metal worker may know how to run a brake or measure for a duct bend, but the precise nature of the shapes on an HK receiver will leave little room for error lest your carrier end up bound at one end or the middle... not even to mention where your trigger pack needs to be
to work as it should.
So please proceed and enjoy the learning process involved as it will be an enriching if not humbling experience for a beginner, and remember that all I was trying to do was help you by steering your focus to the areas that should be considered before spending your money on a flat and kit.
Also let me add this.... I dont care what anybody here, or the maker of any
flat tries to tell you about build instructions that will be included with their flat, The "bend" is the easiest part of the process and that is about the only part that can be explained... after that... it will require a high level of skill to complete.

[grammaton76]

I can build AK's in my sleep, but the H&K pattern rifles should not be approached lightly.

Setting headspace is kinda scary on 'em, from what I've read... really easy to screw up when installing the barrel, and not a lot of ways to correct it if you did it wrong.

[ptoguy2002]

Setting headspace is kinda scary on 'em, from what I've read... really easy to screw up when installing the barrel, and not a lot of ways to correct it if you did it wrong.

This is why I asked whether or not people had barreled trunnions in their kits. If the barrel is still in, it can be installed that way, and headspace can be checked with a set of feeler gauges, real easy.

Barreled trunnion = easy doable
non barreled trunion = harder to do

[bridgeport]

At first glance, a barreled trunnion is easier to work with, that is if the gap is in the correct range.... notice I say gap because assuming the kit is parts from the same rifle and the barrel was factory installed and the rollers and trunnion are not worn... then the gap where you put your feeler gage can be used for a workable reading. If any of these elements are worn they can be replaced with ones that will work. However, it is sometimes a wise idea to push the barrel out of the trunnion and re-install along with some other tidbits
such as rollers to get proper cartridge depth in the chamber along with proper gap or fit between the bolt face, rollers and cartridge. I suggest checking your kit as soon as you get it for both chamber fit, and gap between
bolt/carrier to assess whether things are good to go, if not either send the kit back or start getting ready to push some barrel.
Another critical factor is assuming your barrel and bolt etc are all in spec,
and you put the barreled trunnion in to your home made receiver... and without jigs.... be awfully sure of the relationship between your barrel and receiver..... just like flying you have to keep it at proper attitude both up and down as well as side to side otherwise your "perfectly welded" finished rifle will be shooting off to one side or the other or (like way to many PTR's) too high or too low. Even the so called "pro's" often dont get this relationship correct as I have seen over and over again.... and for good reason..... it takes good measuring tools, a very good eye, and a bucketfull of skill.
Sound like its getting any easier?

[ptoguy2002]

Bridgeport:
Give me a little credit, you are acting like I woke up this morning and said "hum, I think I'll build an HK this week."
I am asking these questions because I have the equipment to do these builds (given certain conditions, like a barreled trunnion), and would be interested in helping others.
While I am by no means a master gun smith or HK builder, but I would say I am way ahead of the curve on a build like this.

[ptoguy2002]

I would disagree that pressing out the barrel is required. For a professional build, maybe, but even then the proper way to reinstall it is to rotate it and redrill the hole oversized, not really practical for a homebuilder. Gap can be adjusted with a new locking piece, +/- rollers.

A proper bolt gap does not control the cartridge depth in the chamber, but the geometry and forces of the rollers in the trunnion on the locking piece. Bolt gap going up or down (short of bottoming out) does not change the cartridge depth in the chamber.

[bridgeport]

Oh my apologies, I see. you were just aking the questions rhetorically. No disrespect, but I dont know you or your capabilities. So credit given. and by the way... if you flip the barrel... you dont have to drill the hole oversize.

[gn3hz3ku1*]

i am def interested, located in SOCAL. i dont have any parts/receivers but I am not too bad with my hands and learn quickly and can order them once they are out..

plus i dream of HK MP5 9mm Clones....

[ptoguy2002]

Bridgeport:
You don't know me, what I do, and what my capabilities are, so it is completely unfair to throw out sarcastic comments and now borderline ridiculing me. What is your standing, or qualifications to be such a know-it-all on the subject?

Oh, and by the way, yes it is oversized, or at least that is the "right" way that the factory would do. But you'll probably say its not really needed, well neither is removing the barrel from the trunnion to begin with. Have you ever built an HK? Have you