California cops shoot kid with toy gun aka Replica Assault Weapon

[SactoDoug]

Agreed. I used to be able to run around with such toys and no one would bat an eye. Hell, I could even bring them to school for video assignments, as long as we notified the teacher beforehand, and showed it to him/her as well.

Unfortunately, the simple fact of the matter is, within the last decade or so there have been a number of shootings involving kids as the perpetrators, like Columbine. The police simply cannot assume anymore that kids are just being kids. Nowadays, you just never know. The key piece of information here that's missing is if the kid actually brought up the replica and pointed it at an officer. Or if it looked like the kid was going for cover. Without knowing all the details, we can't cast judgment because we weren't there.

The number one rule of firearms safety is always assume a gun is loaded. Well, if it looks real, best assume for your own safety it IS real. On that point, the officers made the right call. How they dealt with the situation, that's another story dependent on some conspicuously and suspiciously missing information from the news outlets.

I think that is what bothers me the most. Say two boys are playing with cap guns. They not only look real, but they sound like .22's being shot. From everything I am seeing in this thread, the police could come in, guns blazing, kill both boys and it would be justified. They had something that looked like a gun in hand, it sounded like gun shots so it is justified to shoot them dead where they play.

Is that where we are now? If a person is holding something that looks like a gun and they move the wrong way, fill them with lead. No need to have any reports of shots fired, threats made, injuries or any other context? Just the fact that something is in hand that looks like a gun and they moved the wrong way is justification enough to kill anyone, including children.

[POLICESTATE]

I think that is what bothers me the most. Say two boys are playing with cap guns. They not only look real, but they sound like .22's being shot. From everything I am seeing in this thread, the police could come in, guns blazing, kill both boys and it would be justified. They had something that looked like a gun in hand, it sounded like gun shots so it is justified to shoot them dead where they play.

Is that where we are now? If a person is holding something that looks like a gun and they move the wrong way, fill them with lead. No need to have any reports of shots fired, threats made, injuries or any other context? Just the fact that something is in hand that looks like a gun and they moved the wrong way is justification enough to kill anyone, including children.

Yes that is exactly where we are now.

This is what the people wanted when they voted for the people they've been voting for these last 30+ years. Sure they didn't see how things would turn out, most Americans lack vision beyond what they see directly in front of them, and even that is poor.

[SactoDoug]

Contrast this story with another one that recently happened here locally:

http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archives/2013/08/foresthill-man-who-fired-at-deputies-arrested-in-woods.html

August 23, 2013
Foresthill man who fired at deputies arrested in woods

By Barbara Barte Osborn
Bee Correspondent

Placer County Sheriff's deputies disarmed and arrested an allegedly intoxicated and suicidal Foresthill man today after he fled into the woods and fired at them following a domestic dispute.

During the incident, the Sheriff's Office issued a computerized phone warning to nearby residents to lock their doors and remain inside and to nearby schools, which went into lockdown.

Dena Erwin, the department's public information officer, said residents of the Cedar Grove Mobile Home Park in Foresthill called 911 at 7:37 a.m. to report a fight between Earnest C. Larimer and a woman at his home on Racetrack Street.

The woman was able to leave the home before deputies arrived, but Larimer stayed inside and fired a round from a 12-gauge shotgun. He then exited the rear of the home and fired two rounds after entering the woods.

Deputies formed a perimeter around the wooded area and negotiated with Larimer, asking him to drop his weapon, for about 30 minutes.

"Deputies showed great restraint in a tense situation and were able to disarm Larimer and take him into custody without further incident," Erwin said in a news release.

Larimer was booked at the Placer County Jail on suspicion of domestic violence, making criminal threats, being a felon in possession of a firearm and reckless discharge of a firearm. His bail is set at $500,000.

An actual firearm was not only in hand, but fired. Yet the police did not just shoot the guy dead. They managed the area and brought the man in, alive.

[jbj]

I thought that here in CA, we passed laws to make sure toy guns were identifiable as such with orange muzzles after several children were shot by police both here and in other states over the years.

[empty the mag]

Contrast this story with another one that recently happened here locally:

http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archives/2013/08/foresthill-man-who-fired-at-deputies-arrested-in-woods.html

An actual firearm was not only in hand, but fired. Yet the police did not just shoot the guy dead. They managed the area and brought the man in, alive.

Of course every situation is different, but for most it's obvious if you are looking at a child by their walk,actions and dress.
I think whenever you come up on a situation it needs to be accessed in your thought process. In some people it works better than others. If someone kicks in my front door I don't need 10 seconds to know what's going on, but if someone knocks at my door I have to make a judgement to open the door or not and that will be longer then 10 seconds. I do know If I call someone from behind they will naturally turn around to access who's talking to them. Therein lies the rub and this is what happened to this young boy.

[APV]

Each officer is responsible for their judgements. It has nothing to do with elections. Its a matter of moral character for each officer who is out there.

Agree, when the work is done professionally and responsibly there is nothing to make headlines in the media nationwide and it goes unnoticed in the mainstream media. Mostly those cases that go weird for lack of professionalism, poor judgement or other reasons become nationwide sensations.

[PATCH5]

Just wanted to say, I served with Erick in the .mil. I never knew him to be anything less than completely honorable and professional. Hell of a nice guy. He was a squad leader in an infantry unit during one hell of a deployment, and his Joes loved him. South Baghdad in 2005.
If he shot, I guarantee that he felt immediate threat. He is not a JBT, he is not one of the bad guys, one of the bad cops. He is one of us, one of the good guys. He has served his community for 24 years as a cop, and has defended his country with honor and poise.

[IrishJoe3]

Just wanted to say, I served with Erick in the .mil. I never knew him to be anything less than completely honorable and professional. Hell of a nice guy. He was a squad leader in an infantry unit during one hell of a deployment, and his Joes loved him. South Baghdad in 2005.
If he shot, I guarantee that he felt immediate threat. He is not a JBT, he is not one of the bad guys, one of the bad cops. He is one of us, one of the good guys. He has served his community for 24 years as a cop, and has defended his country with honor and poise.

[guitar-nut]

From what I saw I'd say it was justified. That kid didn't look 13 and that rifle didn't look like a toy.

Sad, yes. But at that exact moment I'm sure the officer feared for his life.

[malfunction]

tl;dr, but did this not occur in an incorporated area outside Santa Rosa? Where open carry of a long gun (toy or otherwise) might not be routine but is not actually prohibited?

[Volte6]

The boy was described as facing away, and when he heard a commotion, began turning towards the source. LEO's also stated that he was simultaneously "raising the barrel". Before he could ID that LEO's were addressing anyone, let alone him, he was shot to death, 7 times I believe.

There were 10 seconds between the call in of a suspicious suspect and the call that shots were fired.

Carrying a rifle around like that in public is grounds for citation, not termination.

I want to know what procedure they had in place to avoid this sort of situation, and why that failed. I also want to know what they are doing in the future to keep this sort of thing from happening.

We have an ungodly amount of weapons in public hands, including children, from air rifles to pistols. 99.99999% are never used to violently attack the public or police. Why did they assume that this was somethign different? They assumed it was a real weapon, maybe that the kid was planning on rampaging, and finally that he was going to shoot them. Is this a normal set of assumptions to make on any citizen?

The first assumption should be that it's just a dumb kid playing with his friends or goign to his friends. They should be cautious and identify themselves. He never had a chance to even see them before being shot. To my mind they never gave him a chance for success in this situation.

[Artema]

Carrying a rifle around like that in public is grounds for citation, not termination.

Really?

tl;dr, but did this not occur in an incorporated area outside Santa Rosa? Where open carry of a long gun (toy or otherwise) might not be routine but is not actually prohibited?

[malfunction]

Oops, I meant UNincorporated area where open carry of a long gun is not prohibited.

[Volte6]

Really?

I'm unfamiliar with the region, but I meant if it was illegal.

[GoingPro]

Sad story for all parties involved.

Crazy how the times have changed. When I was growing up we carried our BB guns & paintball guns everywhere and no one cared...

this here... ^^^