SSE question

[gtec]

I'm too stupid to understand, but i think i just read a newsletter that stated the proposed bill that would have stopped allowing Single Shot Exemption modifications on handguns was vetoed. Can anyone smarter and knowledgable confirm this?

[zman]

AB 169 is dead............for now.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=836118

[RickD427]

I'm too stupid to understand, but i think i just read a newsletter that stated the proposed bill that would have stopped allowing Single Shot Exemption modifications on handguns was vetoed. Can anyone smarter and knowledgable confirm this?

That is true. The Governor vetoed AB169 which would have prevented the use of SSE to allow the transfer of weapons that were formerly semi-auto.

It would have continued the SSE for weapons that were originally made as single shot, in the manner originally intended by the law.

The Governor's veto message made it clear he was using his veto because of other problematic content in the bill. He did state that closing the SSE loophole was a good idea.

That's a clear invite for the legislature to craft a single issue bill to close the SSE loophole next year.

[JDay]

The Governor's veto message made it clear he was using his veto because of other problematic content in the bill. He did state that closing the SSE loophole was a good idea.

There is no SSE loophole. The roster law specifically exempts single shot handguns. I sent the Governor an email explaining this, others should do the same.

[RickD427]

There is no SSE loophole. The roster law specifically exempts single shot handguns. I sent the Governor an email explaining this, others should do the same.

Jday,

I beg to differ. The SSE as used to permit the sale of a formerly semi-auto handgun very much is a classic "loophole". It's a "loophole" because it's a lawful action according to the letter of the law that was not intended to function that way by the author of the law.

Please do not confuse the legality of the SSE (it is legal and will continue to be legal in light of the Governor's veto) with what was intended when the law was written (to allow handguns like the XP-100 and Thompson Contender to be exempt from the safe handgun testing requirements).

[tonyxcom]

Let's not kid ourselves that anyone that single shots a semi auto to bypass the roster isn't going to turn around and convert it back to semi.

We are ONLY using SSE to BYPASS the roster. So its a loophole.

[Librarian]

Jday,

I beg to differ. The SSE as used to permit the sale of a formerly semi-auto handgun very much is a classic "loophole". It's a "loophole" because it's a lawful action according to the letter of the law that was not intended to function that way by the author of the law.

I disagree.

"Unloaded open carry" was legal via a 'loophole'.

It was (and is) illegal to carry loaded in public - but unloaded was not addressed.

It was illegal to carry concealed in public, but open carry (now illegal) was not addressed.

An accidental confluence of two unaddressed behaviors gave a 'loophole'.

Following the Penal Code as written is not a loophole, despite the potential disappointment of the writers of the law.

[RickD427]

Librarian,

I'm actually with Tony on this one, but in the absence of an authoritative definition of "loophole", I have to observe that all seem to agree on the facts. We only differ on what to call it.

[Librarian]

But calling SSE a loophole puts one in the same camp as Our Esteemed Senator Feinstein, who called it using a loophole when manufacturers, observing that 'illegal' rifles needed two of a list of 'bad' features, decided to manufacture and sell rifles with just one.

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher mount

Thus we lost bayonet mounts and grenade launchers and flash suppressors.

I prefer to keep better company than those who reason as she does.

[tonyxcom]

1. A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance.

We are using SSE for the sole purpose of bypassing (evading compliance with) the roster.

[Librarian]

1. A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance.

We are using SSE for the sole purpose of bypassing (evading compliance with) the roster.

I would say we are complying with the plain language of the statute.

I once asked DiFi (she never answered, of course) if people who obeyed the speed limit were using a loophole to avoid paying traffic violation fines.

[tonyxcom]

I get the point you are making. No one is arguing that we aren't following the letter of the law here.

I think your question to DiFi was slightly flawed though. You need to find a different law that allows you to drive above the speed limit without paying fines.

Similar in the way we are using the SSE to transfer guns that aren't on the roster. You see, they forgot to write in the law that once you convert a semiauto to single shot that it must remain in that configuration. No such thing exists, that I am aware of, that allows you to legally bypass the speed limit (unless you have a flying car).

[RickD427]

I would say we are complying with the plain language of the statute.

I once asked DiFi (she never answered, of course) if people who obeyed the speed limit were using a loophole to avoid paying traffic violation fines.

Librarian,

I'm still with Tony here.

It's a "Loophole" because you are complying with the plain language of the statute. If you were not complying with the plain language of the statute, I'd call that a "Crime."

This is different from your example involving our esteemed senator. There is no "Loophole" involved in obeying the speed limits to avoid paying traffic fines because there never was a law that intended to collect fines from persons obeying the speed limit.

On the other hand the authors of the SSE did intend to require semi-autos to go through the "safe handgun" testing process. It's only because they did a poor job drafting the legislation that we now have the semi-auto SSE practice.

[Librarian]

It's a "Loophole" because you are complying with the plain language of the statute.

Then every occasion of complying with the language of a statute is a 'loophole'.

I'm afraid I cannot accept that ordinary obedience to statute is somehow a loophole.

Legislators get to write laws; we get to obey them; sloppy writing yielding an unexpected result - which is precisely aligned with what was proposed, debated, amended, voted on, and signed into law - is not, in my opinion, a loophole.

I think referring to 'obeying the law as written' as a loophole is poor reasoning.

[tonyxcom]

Sure, the legislators wrote in an exemption for certain types of single shot pistols. I think it would be safe to assume that they didn't intend for this type of exemption to inadvertently create the means for which we could purchase semi-auto guns not on the roster.

We aren't following the law because we want Glocks, Sigs and 1911s with 7" barrels and the ability to manually load a round at a time.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

Librarian, I am unable to find any dictionary (online) that has the same very narrow definition of loophole that you do.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/loophole

Loophole
An omission or Ambiguity in a legal document that allows the intent of the document to be evaded.

Loopholes come into being through the passage of statutes, the enactment of regulations, the drafting of contracts or the decisions of courts. A loophole allows an individual or group to use some gap in the restrictions or requirements of the law or contract for personal advantage without technically breaking the law or contract. In response, lawmakers and regulators work to pass reforms that will close the loophole. For example, in the federal tax code, a long-standing loophole was the socalled tax shelter, which allowed taxpayers to reduce their tax debt by making investments. Although not closed entirely, this loophole was substantially reduced by the tax reform act of 1986 (Pub. L. No. 99-514, 100 Stat. 2085 [codified as amended in numerous sections of 26 U.S.C.A.]).

Loopholes exist because it is impossible to foresee every circumstance or course of conduct that will arise under, or in response to, the law.