Why hasn't military changed infantry rifle ?

[SilverTauron]

That's half the answer.

The other half is Grunts ain't worth it.

The Military would rather buy some expensive Airplane/Ship/Missile System Instead.

The Grunt is the bottom of the barrel and gets last pickings - same as it's been for hundreds of years.

We're at a point where the "grunts" aren't frontline combat troops, for the most part. For every person physically using a weapon to fight the enemy, there's 10 odd support troops backing them up in various parts.

With recent conflicts , most of the personnel are support troops who only occasionally have to go "outside the wire", and only then to accomplish a specific support job. When most of the "grunts" aren't carrying rifles to kill the enemy, there isn't much support for changing the weapons.

Right now what's holding us back is training, not hardware.

[TurboLT]

Right now what's holding us back is training, not hardware.

I agree. What I can't understand is how easily 1-2 man teams can harass platoons or more of highly equipped modern militaries. You'd think we'd learn and spend more $$ on being ninjas and less on tech.

[Scuba Steve33]

I agree. What I can't understand is how easily 1-2 man teams can harass platoons or more of highly equipped modern militaries. You'd think we'd learn and spend more $$ on being ninjas and less on tech.

wut

[SilverTauron]

wut

Soldier/Airman/Marine/Sailor/Coastie w/10000 rounds of practice on an M4 > 100 rounds of practice with Rifle Unobtanium.

[Scuba Steve33]

Soldier/Airman/Marine/Sailor/Coastie w/10000 rounds of practice on an M4 > 100 rounds of practice with Rifle Unobtanium.

I understand and agree with that, but he clearly doesn't understand what harassing fire is or does.

[B!ngo]

It'll never happen but a shift to the Tavor, perhaps with a beefier round (.308) and a move to the automated sight like that Texas company is perfecting is the next gen.
A Tavor because it's a bull pup: smaller, lighter, easier to maneuver in CQB, or easier to add a longer barrel and remain maneuverable, faster to swing and hold to sight through the scope. I'm sure this won't happen because our military decision makers who I generally respect just won't consider it a 'real rifle';
A larger round because in many cases for the kinds of battle scenarios we will be fighting, classic supply lines won't be necessary and so a big load out is less critical;
Automated sights because, well, if you're shooting at distance, anything that virtually guarantees a hit extends the load out and makes the soldier more effective.
All three together and it's a big upgrade. I don't say this because I think the M4 is 'broken', but rather that there is proven (or nearly proven) technology that would be a boon to the safety and effectiveness of our men and women.
B

[retiredAFcop]

When the **** did you retire? Basic Training for the Air Force has been eight and half weeks for awhile. Get your facts straight.

Back in the day, Airmen could do it in six.

Retired 9.5 years ago. BT was in the 80s for me, and was 8 weeks, because I started out in the Army before switching to the USAF. All of my AF contemporaries did 6 weeks of BT. As a joke, poking fun at the "dick measuring contest" going on between the Marines and others, it still works, since it turns the argument on its head, and puts the "our training is longer" comments into a different perspective.


Getting back on topic:
Started my career with the M-16A1, then the M-16A2, when I "crossed into the blue", I used M-16s and GAU-5s, then we upgraded to M-16A2s. We were in the process of getting M-4s when I retired. So in my experience, starting in the mid 80s and running to the early part of this century, I was issued 4 different service rifles. Infantrymen serving during the same period as I did would have been issued three different service rifles - the M-16A1, M-16A2, and M-4.

[Sunday]

It wasn't to wound as our military is taught, Marines at least, to shoot to kill.

The Marines are lean mean fighting machines on sea and land and air!!!

[SilverTauron]

It'll never happen but a shift to the Tavor, perhaps with a beefier round (.308) and a move to the automated sight like that Texas company is perfecting is the next gen.

People with a hard on for a .308 main battle rifle ought to carry one w/full gear for a few miles on foot. A .308 infantry rifle sounds like a great idea when you just drive it to a static range. Its a different sport entirely when you gotta haul that beefy .308 and associated mags with you on foot-and you'll only be able to carry a fraction of what you could with 5.56 .

A Tavor because it's a bull pup: smaller, lighter, easier to maneuver in CQB, or easier to add a longer barrel and remain maneuverable, faster to swing and hold to sight through the scope. I'm sure this won't happen because our military decision makers who I generally respect just won't consider it a 'real rifle';
A larger round because in many cases for the kinds of battle scenarios we will be fighting, classic supply lines won't be necessary and so a big load out is less critical;

A bullpup optimized for close quarters urban fighting is no fun to shoot long range at the kinds of distances our boys in A-stan are fighting at. The TAVOR was made for the Israeli infantry, who naturally have to fight mostly in close quarters due to their Middle East environment. The US military cannot afford to specialize so narrowly.

As to the supply line aspect, every pound matters when youre flying ammo, food , bullets and gear via transport aircraft. There's only so much room on a C-17 , and a space which can accommodate 1 pallet of .308 can accept twice as much 5.56. That matters when you're trucking in your war fighting materiel.

Automated sights because, well, if you're shooting at distance, anything that virtually guarantees a hit extends the load out and makes the soldier more effective.
All three together and it's a big upgrade. I don't say this because I think the M4 is 'broken', but rather that there is proven (or nearly proven) technology that would be a boon to the safety and effectiveness of our men and women.
B

Automated sights translates to military troop-speak as "another part destined to fail when I need it the most".

Instead of trying to find a better mousetrap, perhaps we should focus on improving our skills with the guns we got eh?

[Noonanda]

Guadalcanal was almost a completely different situation. The Marines did have some battle experience in some earlier theaters and they had good air and naval cover from the Navy.

If it wasn't for the Navy the Japanese would have poured reinforcements in.

Remember at this point in the war, the Empire still had many advantages.

Emdawg gotta take issue with parts of this comment as they are somewhat incorrect.

The Marines landed on the Solomon islands of Guadalcanal, and Tulagi on 7 August 1942. Up to that point Marines had been involved in the Defense of the Philippines (most of the 4th Marine Regiment was serving on Corrigidor and were forced to surrender), the Marine defense Battalion at Wake Island (was forced to surrender) and the Battle of Midway (an air and sea battle, no ground combat).

The 1st Marine Division was for the most part an untested Division, They did have "Old Breed" Marines who had fought in WW1, the banana wars or served in China, but the 1st Marine Division of August 1942 had no where near the combat experience that you are alluding to.

Also due to the battle of Savo Island the Marines were left lacking alot of needed supplies and equipment that were still on the ship when Admiral Turner pulled out with his ships ( the Marines had not "Combat Loaded" the ships to get the most important gear off first). The "Cactus Air force" did a great job supporting th Marines but again these were somewhat inexperienced at the beginning of the battle.


Scuba Steve33, where did Dakota Meyers win his Congressional Medal of Honor? Oh yeah, he was up in Kunar Providence serving as an Advisor to the Afghan Army. I dont know how you equate Helmand province as being a nice easy place to fight. The Taliban there had fought the British to a standstill before the Marine Corps went in.

I Have served with many great men in both the Army and the Navy so I aint gonna bother with a pissing contest. But I am proud to have been a Marine and served for 20 years (Just retired June 30th).

[Emdawg]

Wow, I thought this thread died.

Emdawg gotta take issue with parts of this comment as they are somewhat incorrect.

The Marines landed on the Solomon islands of Guadalcanal, and Tulagi on 7 August 1942. Up to that point Marines had been involved in the Defense of the Philippines (most of the 4th Marine Regiment was serving on Corrigidor and were forced to surrender), the Marine defense Battalion at Wake Island (was forced to surrender) and the Battle of Midway (an air and sea battle, no ground combat).

The 1st Marine Division was for the most part an untested Division, They did have "Old Breed" Marines who had fought in WW1, the banana wars or served in China, but the 1st Marine Division of August 1942 had no where near the combat experience that you are alluding to.

Also due to the battle of Savo Island the Marines were left lacking alot of needed supplies and equipment that were still on the ship when Admiral Turner pulled out with his ships ( the Marines had not "Combat Loaded" the ships to get the most important gear off first). The "Cactus Air force" did a great job supporting th Marines but again these were somewhat inexperienced at the beginning of the battle.


Scuba Steve33, where did Dakota Meyers win his Congressional Medal of Honor? Oh yeah, he was up in Kunar Providence serving as an Advisor to the Afghan Army. I dont know how you equate Helmand province as being a nice easy place to fight. The Taliban there had fought the British to a standstill before the Marine Corps went in.

I Have served with many great men in both the Army and the Navy so I aint gonna bother with a pissing contest. But I am proud to have been a Marine and served for 20 years (Just retired June 30th).

Alright the Marines were full of green soldiers, dotted with veterans from previous conflicts. My mistake.

Nonetheless, the battle was decided by two things: the holding of Henderson field by the Marines and sea/air superiority by the Navy.

If the Japanese would have won either, then the campaign would have lasted a lot longer or would have been a total failure for the Allies.



BTW, good luck with your retirement!

[Noonanda]

Wow, I thought this thread died.





Alright the Marines were full of green soldiers, dotted with veterans from previous conflicts. My mistake.

Nonetheless, the battle was decided by two things: the holding of Henderson field by the Marines and sea/air superiority by the Navy.

If the Japanese would have won either, then the campaign would have lasted a lot longer or would have been a total failure for the Allies.



BTW, good luck with your retirement!

Thanks and agree with you

[Scuba Steve33]

Scuba Steve33, where did Dakota Meyers win his Congressional Medal of Honor? Oh yeah, he was up in Kunar Providence serving as an Advisor to the Afghan Army. I dont know how you equate Helmand province as being a nice easy place to fight. The Taliban there had fought the British to a standstill before the Marine Corps went in.

I Have served with many great men in both the Army and the Navy so I aint gonna bother with a pissing contest. But I am proud to have been a Marine and served for 20 years (Just retired June 30th).

Do you know who Captain Swenson is?

I never said the Army was the only one in mountainous/dangerous provinces, I said they are the vast majority is these heavily kinetic areas and as you admitted yourself, his role there was an adviser and they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[CrippledPidgeon]

Not a moderator here, but it occurs to me that the OP's question was answered within a couple posts, and the following 4 pages are nothing except a long argument about whether the Army is better than the Marines, or vice versa. And there was a 9mm vs .45 and a 5.56 vs 7.62 caliber argument in there as well...

Just let this thread die the death it deserves....

[smle-man]

Thread drift usually kicks in about reply 6 or so......