Defensive ammo?

[christmasstorm]

I understand the idea behind what the round does once it hits a mass (intruder etc) but honestly...mind you I am not military so have no clue about this stuff... How many rounds of non defensive 45 would you have to put in someone to drop them? Feels so weird to write a question like that but, this whole thing started for me as home defense for my family. Its my castle.

I just couldn't imagine a intruder lasting all that long from a couple non-defense rounds in center mass from a few feet away.

[Riddler]

What you should be worried about is over penetration.
You are liable for every bullet. Hollow points are designed
to expand and expel the energy into the target, thus lowering
the chance of collateral damage. Also the military do not use
hollow points do to the Geneva Convention

[christmasstorm]

Ahhh...see thats a good point.

[-hanko]

I understand the idea behind what the round does once it hits a mass (intruder etc) but honestly...mind you I am not military so have no clue about this stuff... How many rounds of non defensive 45 would you have to put in someone to drop them? Feels so weird to write a question like that but, this whole thing started for me as home defense for my family. Its my castle.

I just couldn't imagine a intruder lasting all that long from a couple non-defense rounds in center mass from a few feet away.

The very first thing I would strongly suggest would be a class or 2 in home/self defense from a good trainer. Asking the question here is OK...good to have a 2nd data source, but as you'll see just below your post, you do get answers that are FOS...more below...

"How many rounds" depends on the condition of the actor in your home, what you shoot, and where you hit the actor...i.e, it's not definable as every shooting is different.

What you should be worried about is over penetration.
You are liable for every bullet. Hollow points are designed
to expand and expel the energy into the target, thus lowering
the chance of collateral damage. Also the military do not use
hollow points do to the Geneva Convention

Sofa-King sick of incorrect answers to questions that have been asked a bazillion times...that said,

What OP should be worried about first is stopping the actor.

All things equal, an expanding bullet will stop an actor faster than a non-expanding bullet.

There's a major hissy fit on this forum that places over-penetration above actor-stopping, but I'm not aware of any stories of collateral damage due to over-penetration by a trained shooter. If you've got 1 or 2, I'd be happy to be educated.

The Geneva Convention did not get into bullet damage. The Prague Convention did, and simply continued an older agreement (St. Petersberg, I think). Currently, NATO countries agree not to use hollow point bullets.

None of which has anything to do with civilian self-defense.

-hanko

[Laythor]

moving past getting proper training on home defense (which is more important then almost anything else), the best home defense round is the one that will reliably feed in you gun. Some guns will eat anything, some are picky.

The worst thing you can do is purchase the latest and greatest "Super Man Pooper Ultra X round with Ground up Honey Badger tips" only to find out you get FTF and FTE every round.

Buy a couple of boxes of each type and take it to your range to test them out.

Back to home defense courses. If you have the money to spend on an instructor I would suggest taking some courses. If you can get one to come to your home to go over drills that you can practice even better. I think people underestimate how important planning is when it comes to home defense.

Do your family members know what to do in the event of an intruder?

Do you have small kids? Do they know to hide in their room until you've come to get them or given an all clear? Do you practice this with them? I can imagine no worse scenario then a child walking into the middle of a stand off with an intruder.

Do you know what you're going to do/say after a shooting? People have ended up spending thousands and thousands of dollars on legal fees simply because they did/said the wrong thing after a justifiable shoot.

[Supertac916]

What you should be worried about is over penetration.
You are liable for every bullet. Hollow points are designed
to expand and expel the energy into the target, thus lowering
the chance of collateral damage. Also the military do not use
hollow points do to the Geneva Convention

+1

"Defense" ammo reduces overpenetration, but doesn't eliminate it. Virtually every handgun and shotgun round that would be used to stop a person will over penetrate a wall should we miss. If it hits a person the JHP's expand and the energy will be expelled into the BG, rather than going through the BG.

Surprisingly, many of us use .223 or 5.56 rifles for home defense using ammo like Hornady TAP 40 grain- 75 grain rounds. The bullet travels extremely fast upwards toward 3,000 fps and will break apart on impact, even in walls.

It's why many SWAT teams use M4's or M16's vs. the HK MP5 or UMP's in 9mm or .45 ACP calibers. 9mm rounds are 115 grain and .45 ACP are 185-230 grains compared to the .223 40, 55, and 75 grain rounds. The larger projectiles tend to deform, but not break apart which is the cause of danger for overpenetration. I have several friends on various SWAT teams and it's the main reason why the use M4's.

Will a few center mass shots stop a BG guaranteed? Nope, there's no guarantee and there have been many cases, where individuals have overcome the physical trauma to inflict damage on their victims. Many home invaders are on narcotics, adrenaline, etc., which is a significant factor in how someone reacts to being shot. There's a good article about Will Power vs. Firepower that they use in Advanced Officer Involved Shooting courses at the CA DOJ.

It's why we train, train, and train somemore. We do not shoot to kill, shoot to wound, we continue to shoot to stop the threat.

The firearms I use for HD are a Glock 35 with JHP's, S&W 686+, Mossberg 12 gauge, and a Bushmaster XM15. The Bushmaster is for my wife

[-hanko]

Laythor said it better than I could...

but also check out the concept of a "layered" defense...lighting, alarm system and/or canine early warning, "safe" room, etc.

There's definitely a bunch to learn.

-hanko

[christmasstorm]

No have have not gone through any of those classes or worked with my family (except my wife who I have shown quick access to safe and what to grab, although I hate that she knows that while I sleep...kidding) I will take you advise as I have already considered doing a defensive training at my local range. As far as what to say over time I have learned, it is best to say absolutely nothing. Especially in California. Let them take me to jail and have the lawyers sort it out.

[Riddler]

The very first thing I would strongly suggest would be a class or 2 in home/self defense from a good trainer. Asking the question here is OK...good to have a 2nd data source, but as you'll see just below your post, you do get answers that are FOS...more below...

"How many rounds" depends on the condition of the actor in your home, what you shoot, and where you hit the actor...i.e, it's not definable as every shooting is different.


Sofa-King sick of incorrect answers to questions that have been asked a bazillion times...that said,

What OP should be worried about first is stopping the actor.

All things equal, an expanding bullet will stop an actor faster than a non-expanding bullet.

There's a major hissy fit on this forum that places over-penetration above actor-stopping, but I'm not aware of any stories of collateral damage due to over-penetration by a trained shooter. If you've got 1 or 2, I'd be happy to be educated.

The Geneva Convention did not get into bullet damage. The Prague Convention did, and simply continued an older agreement (St. Petersberg, I think). Currently, NATO countries agree not to use hollow point bullets.

None of which has anything to do with civilian self-defense.

-hanko

Sorry dad

[christmasstorm]

I have several layers. Thanks for the advise guys

[ElDub1950]

keep in mind that fatal shots seldom stop an attacker instantly. There are numerous incidents of an attacker continuing to attack after multiple fatal wounds. It can take 10-20 seconds for fatal wound to stop them.

Unless it's a lucky head or spinal cord shot the only reason a single shot stops an attacker is the psychological impact, because that's what they see a 1000 times on tv and movies.

You can't depend on a couple shots stopping at attacker.

[DRM6000]

There is no definitive answer. Use the best defensive ammunition you can get your hands on to increase the odds of stopping the threat. Also practice and train to increase your odds of survival.