Rifle transfer question

[Rink Rat]

So my coworker tells me his father, a current nevada resident, just came to CA on a visit and gave him one of those cool little S&W m&p 15-22. He said his dad came over and surprised him with the gift. Now my buddy is not a prohibited as I have been with him to pick up both long & hand guns in the past, but this one didn't go throught a FFL here in CA. They were told by a CA FFL that it was good to go, but I have read the PC and it says pistols have to go through an FFL and it seems a little vague on long guns. I just want my buddy to be legal so what do you guys think/know about this? Thanks in advance.

[Librarian]

So my coworker tells me his father, a current nevada resident, just came to CA on a visit and gave him one of those cool little S&W m&p 15-22. He said his dad came over and surprised him with the gift. Now my buddy is not a prohibited as I have been with him to pick up both long & hand guns in the past, but this one didn't go throught a FFL here in CA. They were told by a CA FFL that it was good to go, but I have read the PC and it says pistols have to go through an FFL and it seems a little vague on long guns. I just want my buddy to be legal so what do you guys think/know about this? Thanks in advance.

Dad should come back and take his son to a CA FFL to do this correctly.

What you describe would be an illegal interstate transfer.

See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=503873; that's aimed mostly at CA residents going out and buying out of state, but same law prevents coming here and transferring without using an FFL.

[dieselpower]

federal violation. all state to state transfers must go through a FFL.

[Rink Rat]

That's what I thought, thanks to the both of you for confirming my concerns.

[edgerly779]

I think it has to go thru ffl even tho it is oplaw father to son. Get hold of ca doj and ask.

[fiddletown]

I think it has to go thru ffl even tho it is oplaw father to son. Get hold of ca doj and ask.

The California DOJ probably won't give the correct answer. The California DOJ is responsible for implementing and enforcing California gun laws, and the folks answering the telephones probably don't understand federal law. In fact there's no reason they need to understand federal law, and shouldn't be expected to provide correct answers on questions of federal law.

If you absolutely need to ask a regulatory agency about federal law, you need to call ATF.

[Steve_In_29]

Since dad brought the gun to Cali then the transfer was legal under Cali law as an inter-familial transfer of a long gun. Had father shipped it then it would have had to go through an FFL.

[fiddletown]

Since dad brought the gun to Cali then the transfer was legal under Cali law as an inter-familial transfer of a long gun. Had father shipped it then it would have had to go through an FFL.

100% wrong. There is no exception under federal law for intrafamilial transfers. What matters under federal law is that father is a resident of one State and son is a resident of another.

Here (yet again) is the whole federal law story on interstate transfers of firearms (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses and the subject of dual residency):

[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).

[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

[3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

[4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

[6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

Here's what the statutes say:

18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts


...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

....

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
...

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

...

[Steve_In_29]

Does NV register long guns?....No.
Ca (currently) does not either, so bottom line is that unless either of them walk into a ATF Office and confess, who will know or even care?

And if they ask, then the father "loaned" the gun to his son.

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;"

[chillincody]

Does NV register long guns?....No.
Ca (currently) does not either, so bottom line is that unless either of them walk into a ATF Office and confess, who will know or even care?

And if they ask, then the father "loaned" the gun to his son.

[b] shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;"

temp means a short period of time not years
i guess if you like playing fire while striking a match

its like the people that say im gonna buy a rebuild kit and make it into a 30 round Hi cap and if a LEO ?? me ill say i had it before the ban play stupid games win stupid prizes

if your dumb enough to risk your rights and freedom to keep from going to the FFL to LEGALLY transfer a gun you deserve every minute in jail IMO......

[fiddletown]

Does NV register long guns?....No.
Ca (currently) does not either, so bottom line is that unless either of them walk into a ATF Office and confess, who will know or even care?

And if they ask, then the father "loaned" the gun to his son.

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;"

Well, I can see you really don't know what you're talking about and are probably determined to remain ignorant of what the law is. Your reading comprehension also seems to be weak.

1. As far as a loan goes, let's look at the applicable statutes to see why your plan doesn't work:
   
   
   1. 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

      transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

      
      
   2. And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

      transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
      

      (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest ..., and
      
      (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

      ..

   
   
   You may go to another State where (under 18 USC 922(a)(5)) a friend may loan you a gun to, for example, go target shooting together, or an outfitter may rent you a gun for a guided hunt. But if you were to take the gun back to your home State with you, you would be violating 18 USC 922(a)(3), which has no "loan" exception, thus becoming eligible for five years in federal prison and a lifetime loss of gun rights. Since there is no loan" exception in 18 USC 922(a)(3), a load of a firearm may not cross state lines to the borrower's State of residence.
   
   
2. And what you're talking about is getting away with committing a federal felony -- not about being legal. Whether or not someone will get caught is always a question, but one can't necessarily count on getting away with something. Probably almost everyone now in prison thought he'd get away with it. There are all kinds of ways folks get caught.
   
   
3. And if the father and son do get caught and convicted, they can get up to five years each in federal prison. They'd also earn a lifetime loss of gun rights. That's a pretty serious downside to trying to save a few bucks and a little time to do things right.
   
   
4. And encouraging someone to commit a federal crime isn't a very friendly thing to do.

[Oceanbob]

Does NV register long guns?....No.
Ca (currently) does not either, so bottom line is that unless either of them walk into a ATF Office and confess, who will know or even care?

And if they ask, then the father "loaned" the gun to his son.

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;"

The problem is following the LAW is quite simple and straight forward. Why do something wrong and harm all gun owners?

Dad should have just went over to the Gun Store (FFL) and done a proper, legal transfer. Simple and legal.

let's keep it that way..

[Librarian]

* And what you're talking about is getting away with committing a federal felony -- not about being legal. Whether or not someone will get caught is always a question, but one can't necessarily count on getting away with something. Probably almost everyone now in prison thought he'd get away with it. There are all kinds of ways folks get caught.

...

* And encouraging someone to commit a federal crime isn't a very friendly thing to do.

QFT - and to remind us all that at Calguns, the Official Policy is to do, and to advocate doing, the legally required things - until we can get the laws changed.

[Steve_In_29]

In case no one caught it in the OPs post, the father/son/rifle WENT to a CA FFL and were told there was NO paperwork required.

Enlighten me please, WHAT paperwork would a CA FFL require for a inter-familial transfer of a rifle when both family members are standing in his shop in CA with a rifle that is already in CA? CA states there is no need for paperwork when transferring a rifle between family members, only if a pistol is involved.

There is no law against a man bringing a rifle that ISN'T on the Ban List into CA to do some shooting. At which point if he decides to give the rifle to his son before heading back to NV, under CA law all he has to do is hand said rifle to his son. If you want to get picky they can do it in front of a CA FFL, which they did in this case.

The law you keep quoting clearly states that as a CA resident it would be illegal for the son to buy or take possession of the rifle IN another state and transport the rifle back into CA or to have the rifle shipped directly to him in CA from someone in another state. NOT that it would be illegal for the transfer to take place according to CA law if all parties, to include the rifle, were already in CA.


And the insults just add to your standing in my eyes ever so much.

[Librarian]

In case no one caught it in the OPs post, the father/son/rifle WENT to a CA FFL and were told there was NO paperwork required.

Enlighten me please, WHAT paperwork would a CA FFL require for a inter-familial transfer of a rifle when both family members are standing in his shop in CA with a rifle that is already in CA? CA states there is no need for paperwork when transferring a rifle between family members, only if a pistol is involved.

There is no law against a man bringing a rifle that ISN'T on the Ban List into CA to do some shooting. At which point if he decides to give the rifle to his son before heading back to NV, under CA law all he has to do is hand said rifle to his son. If you want to get picky they can do it in front of a CA FFL, which they did in this case.

The law you keep quoting clearly states that as a CA resident it would be illegal for the son to buy or take possession of the rifle IN another state and transport the rifle back into CA or to have the rifle shipped directly to him in CA from someone in another state. NOT that it would be illegal for the transfer to take place according to CA law if all parties, to include the rifle, were already in CA.

The Federal law already quoted - 18 USC 922(a)(5)

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest ..., and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

..

bars transfer of firearms from the resident of one state to a resident of another state, unless an FFL is used for the transfer. There is an exception for inheritance, but that requires that the donor be dead.

It does not matter where the gun is geographically; it matters what are the states of residence of the parties.

NV parent, CA child - must use FFL to do the transfer. That is not 'getting picky'; that's 'avoiding a five-year Federal felony'.

The first FFL was wrong.