On guns, training and perfect reliability, or lack thereof

[DrjonesUSA]

Most, if not practically all gun owners on various online forums place complete emphasis on this notion that all their weapons must be 100% perfect, flawless and utterly reliable.

There are people who have sold otherwise fine guns if it has malfunctioned even ONCE in a thousand rounds!

Some older, wiser gent once posted that back when he was in the Army, they were taught that guns are machines and machines are imperfect and can and will fail and malfunction.

Rather than lament this fact and immediately discard any weapon which wasn't perfect, they TRAINED themselves to deal with these inevitable events.

They TRAINED themselves to clear jams and other malfunctions, to get themselves back in the fight quickly.

What has happened to this concept?

Why is this NEVER mentioned today?

I guess it is probably easier to buy a new gun rather than train yourself to be completely proficient (including, of course, clearing jams and malfunctions) on one or two particular firearms.

Just my observations.

[berg]

I understand your frustration. On the boards I frequent, sigforum, ar15.com, etc in the forums where people are actually talking about guns (not painful break ups, evils bosses, unusual red bumps on skin) malfunction training is talked about by the people serious about shooting.

Malfunction training is built in to most if not all curriculum at the training centers throughout the US and the bay area.

I have a friend that took his M1 Garand to Front Sight NV and was pretty frustrated at the amount of malfunction drills where they required everyone to drop the mag....as he has no mag...just that enbloc clip which spills the cartridges out when he has to eject it in a drill.

My particular frustration is on people's emphasis on how their gun looks rather than how it performs. There are a lot of newbies here that seem preoccupied with looking "badass" at the range and don't even think about how to actually use their guns or get training.

[m1371]

I understand your frustration but I have to say that on the boards I frequent, sigforum, ar15.com, etc in the forums where people are actually talking about guns (not painful break ups, evils bosses, unusual red bumps on skin) malfunction training is talked about.

Malfunction training is built in to most if not all curriculum at the training centers throughout the US and the bay area.

I have a friend that took his M1 Garand to Front Sight NV and was pretty frustrated at the amount of malfunction drills where they required everyone to drop the mag....as he has no mag...just that enbloc clip which spills the cartridges out when he has to eject it in a drill.

My particular frustration is on people's emphasis on how their gun looks rather than how it performs. There are a lot of newbies here that seem preoccupied with looking "badass" at the range and don't even think about how to actually use their guns or get training.

You hit the nail right on the head.

There's a difference between having a firearm for recreational use and having one for utilitarian purposes. It's a tool. If it gets scratched, so what. As long as it functions.

A lot of people who are NOT attending serious training are fixated on looking bad@$$.

There's a difference between going to the range then pumping hundreds of rounds through a weapon (and looking "cool" while doing so) and going to the range with a training objective in mind and improving your skills.

[RRangel]

That is still true of our military today. Although your comments are very general. You also have to factor in that most of those serving in the armed forces don't have a choice in what they're issued. They have to make do, or fail.

Given the choice it's not hard to figure out what paying citizens would want. With that being said no firearm is perfect so it would be wise for todays gun owner to train for all occasions.

Most, if not practically all gun owners on various online forums place complete emphasis on this notion that all their weapons must be 100% perfect, flawless and utterly reliable.

There are people who have sold otherwise fine guns if it has malfunctioned even ONCE in a thousand rounds!

Some older, wiser gent once posted that back when he was in the Army, they were taught that guns are machines and machines are imperfect and can and will fail and malfunction.

Rather than lament this fact and immediately discard any weapon which wasn't perfect, they TRAINED themselves to deal with these inevitable events.

They TRAINED themselves to clear jams and other malfunctions, to get themselves back in the fight quickly.

What has happened to this concept?

Why is this NEVER mentioned today?

I guess it is probably easier to buy a new gun rather than train yourself to be completely proficient (including, of course, clearing jams and malfunctions) on one or two particular firearms.

Just my observations.

[gose]

We trained malfunction drills in the Army, both with the FNC and the G3 (much more needed with the FNC ). No one really complained or made a fuss about it, since we were supposed to trust our rifles with our lives, we better be pretty darn competent in handling them.

When it comes to competing (mainly IPSC and PPC) I still do malfunction drills, even though my Glock and SIG 210s very rarely malfunction I can bet on that the one time they do it will be the final round in the nationals.

I don't trust, or expect, any guns to work 100%, but even if they work 99.99% of the time I wan't to make sure I can handle the situation when it arises.

Sell a gun? Never!

[461]

absolutely a strong need to practice for malfunctions, but I still want a tried and true weapon in my hand. I want any weapon I'm going to defend myself with to be a proven performer with a good track record for reliability. If I have a gun that I have lost confidence in or haven't been able to become confident in then I will either have it fixed or it will no longer be with me.

[taloft]

Develop your boomerang skills. That way when the gun jambs in the middle of a fire fight. You can use it to hit the BG. That's why I prefer steel to plastic.

Seriously, all equipment malfunctions at some point. Murphy's law will ensure that this failure will occur at the most inconvenient moment. The best you can do is to maintain your weapon in optimal condition and practice dealing with such issues. Boomerang training won't hurt either.

[centermass]

Then I am sure that everyone here also practices shooting "off hand," right? Maybe it won't be your gun that malfunctions during a battle, but maybe your shooting hand will be injured or unusable. You better be able to put the lead in the bad guy with your off hand. In our combat shoot sessions, we not only cover malfunctions, but also off hand shooting and other real scenarios like shooting in low/no light situations, etc. If you want to stand a chance in a gun battle, you have to be ready for all situations! I am sure that the majority of the people on this board already know this, but for those who don't, I would highly recommend taking combat shooting courses. You can learn a lot more about your weapon and hone your skills versus standing on the firing line, shooting one round every few seconds at a paper target.

[socalguns]

You're misusing the term offhand.

adj 1: with little or no preparation or forethought; "his ad-lib
comments showed poor judgment"; "an extemporaneous
piano recital"; "an extemporary lecture"; "an
extempore skit"; "an impromptu speech"; "offhand
excuses"; "trying to sound offhanded and reassuring";
"an off-the-cuff toast"; "a few unrehearsed comments"

When you're shooting offhand,
your rifle is in your hands,
not shouldered,
and you're aiming for minute-of-pieplate accuracy.

Some perspective from those who know

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_offhand_position.htm

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_49/ai_102274457

[grammaton76]

Hmm.

Is there any such thing as a 'laundry list' of things one should practice in handgunning? Low light, off hand, weird positions... I'm assuming there's somewhat of a standard battery of training out there somewhere, but I haven't seen anything on the net.

Also, are there any good 'self-scoring' tests for accuracy? I'd be particularly interested in something like, "With a standard silhouette target, at the 25yd line, a minimum qualification score is X points scored over Y rounds fired for a typical police department, if you score below Z points you should just sell your guns or pay someone to teach you how to use them", etc.

[centermass]

You're misusing the term offhand.

What would you suggest I call it? Weak Hand, maybe? If you are right handed and you do something with your left hand or vice versa, how would you describe it? Although you may be correct in that I am misusing the term, I think you know what I meant.

[socalguns]

What would you suggest I call it? Weak Hand, maybe? If you are right handed and you do something with your left hand or vice versa, how would you describe it? Although you may be correct in that I am misusing the term, I think you know what I meant.

Yes, I knew what you meant ,
thats how I knew you were misusing the term

I'd use weak hand, other hand, non-dominant hand

[Satex]

Amen to the original post. The only reason I care about how my guns look is because a good looking gun is usually a clean gun and a clean gun jams less. But I do not dress my guns up. I have to admit to revarnishing the wood on my SKS, but that was a fun week long project!

In my previous life, we trained for jams, off hand shooting, one hand handgun operation, and operation under stress. Those are all great ways to practice and build skill - and I am guilty to have not worked on those skills for the last several years!

In any case, great comment, and heck, if someone wants to sell their gun for cheap just because it jammed once, its a pure gain for whoever buys it from them!

[Jon]

I agree about the merits of good, consistent training. Nine times out of ten (and maybe even higher!) any issues with my firearms are because of me. I'm not saying they happen often, but usually I limp-wristed it, didn't seat the mag properly, etc.

[ohsmily]

Also, are there any good 'self-scoring' tests for accuracy? I'd be particularly interested in something like, "With a standard silhouette target, at the 25yd line, a minimum qualification score is X points scored over Y rounds fired for a typical police department, if you score below Z points you should just sell your guns or pay someone to teach you how to use them", etc.

Those kind of tests are nearly useless for practical shooting qualification and practice. What is the point of slow-fire target style shooting if you are training for practical shooting. Other than making sure your gun shoots straight and working out the basics of stance, grip, and trigger pull, a pure "accuracy" qualification at x-yards has no place in practical shooting.

The fact is, the majority (NOT all) of gun owners have little to no experience in practical/defensive techniques or training. I used to be the gun owner (and there is nothing wrong with it if you ONLY shoot for fun and don't intend on protecting yourself) who went to the range, always just trying to hit the orange, slow fire shooting, or just dumping an entire magazine, with no consideration for real-life training scenarios or practical shooting techniques. Guys, standing in a stall at an indoor range and just sending lead downrange isn't going to make you a good shooter. Though it is fun to do this type of recreational shooting (for awhile), it won't get you to where you need to be to effectively and consistently go through the right motions to employ deadly force if you ever had to. This is not to say that you would not be able to shoot the bad guy if the you ever had to, but your chances are reduced. A training class or CLASSES (plural) are important in at least conveying the basics of practical shooting. After a class at front-sight and other training sessions with various teachers, it became clear how useless standing in stall and just recreationally shooting is.

Having said the above, there is nothing wrong with just plinking away, BUT, it would be a wise investment to attend a class, get the basics. If you fully intend on using a firearm in self defense if the situation ever became necessary, then you should take a class.

(I can't understand how people don't get bored of just going to the desert, and shooting at junk with their old mil-surp rifles from Big 5. One of these weekends, go set up an organized course with your buddies and PRACTICE with your various handguns or shotguns. Go to the IDPA site for ideas of how to set up an effective course. Or attend the local IDPA match, or take a class).