Indoor shooting range...

[Employee3]

A buddy and I are considering opening an indoor shooting range here in southern San Diego county. We have a couple of questions that maybe you knowledgeable folks could help us out with:

Are there any "special" permits that need to be acquired to run an indoor shooting range? That is, FFL-type stuff.

If we were to get an FFL only to do transfers, does the location have to be ATF inspected? We don't want to sell guns, only do FFL transfers and PTP stuff and sell ammo/targets/accessories.

Also we'd like to hear what people like and dislike about their current shooting ranges. A couple of things I've heard is "clean bathrooms" and "professional, no hoodlum policies".

Thanks,

Eric

[grammaton76]

A buddy and I are considering opening an indoor shooting range here in southern San Diego county. We have a couple of questions that maybe you knowledgeable folks could help us out with:

Are there any "special" permits that need to be acquired to run an indoor shooting range? That is, FFL-type stuff.

If we were to get an FFL only to do transfers, does the location have to be ATF inspected? We don't want to sell guns, only do FFL transfers and PTP stuff and sell ammo/targets/accessories.

Also we'd like to hear what people like and dislike about their current shooting ranges. A couple of things I've heard is "clean bathrooms" and "professional, no hoodlum policies".

I attend Iron Sights, up in Oceanside, and so far it's my favorite range. I haven't been to a lot of ranges, but I've been to a couple indoor ones and IS is the one to try and beat.

One big thing is distance. I personally want 25 yards at minimum, which Iron Sights used to have, now they're a few feet short of it due to their backstop system.

Another point, ammo prohibitions. If you can set up some kind of trap system that doesn't care about steel cored ammo, that would be really neat, but it may not exist.

Either a good circulation system or a prohibition on "stinky" ammo - I understand that folks choke and gag on "wolf clouds" indoors, which I've never seen personally since my range bans it.

SOUND BAFFLING! Iron Sights' ground-up-rubber backstop system does a good job of reducing sound, just due to being rubber. I think that, plus some cheap carpet on the walls, would reduce the sound vs bare concrete blocks.

Get traps that can stand up to normal FMJ - frangible ammo requirements raise the cost of ammo!

Now, I believe you have to get a full FFL in order to do transfers, which explains why the indoor ranges I've seen around here seem to be full blown gun shops too. If you don't want to mess with ATF inspections, then you're pretty much going to have to forego being able to perform transfers. Sort of all or nothing. If you're doing transfers, you have to provide secure storage facilities and such, which also gets you into DOJ inspections.

One thing some folks seem to like is a locker room / safety deposit box kind of setup for their guns. That way if the wife doesn't like you having guns, you don't have to have them around the house. And either have a good number of them or hike the prices until you have vacancies - there's very rarely ever a free locker at Iron Sights, from what I understand.

Keep a good burn kit on premises. You never know when some unlucky person's going to try and grab a hot barrel or get a brass case wedged somewhere they can't get it out of quickly.

Expect that military and LE departments are going to come in and monopolize your range at times. They do not like to play with other shooters, so either be resigned to having times where they basically shut down your range to your regular customers, or have range partitions. Iron Sights has a 25yd range for everyone, and a 15yd range which is generally reserved for LE unless there's a lot of folks AND they know no department's going to show up on that given day.

Check into insurance EARLY in the game. Insurance companies pull lots of evil stuff at shooting ranges. Example, after a couple of suicides with rented guns, now there's a policy posted at Iron Sights (and I think American Shooting Center too) that unless you bring your own firearm or come with a friend, you may not shoot. The insurance companies dictate all kinds of crap to ranges, and they basically have to comply with it as if it were a law, as there aren't a lot of insurance companies out there for ranges. That's why you fill out a form that looks almost like a DROS prior to shooting at Iron Sights.

[douglasmorris99]

ditto to all said on the first post..good ventalation and air flow..so many indoor ranges are stuffy even with A/C

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/targetsystems/

http://www.mancomsystems.com/

http://www.snailtraps.com/

http://www.ashrae.org/template/AssetDetail?assetid=41660

http://www.building.org/profiles/98250.html

[kantstudien]

Southern San Diego huh? How about setting up on the border? Free moving targets!

[taloft]

What everyone else said plus...

Bullet proof partitions between the lanes. That way when the idiot in the next lane over sweeps me with the muzzle and discharges a round, it will bounce back and forth in his stall insuring we don't have to worry about him again.
Seriously, Bullet proof partitions.
An area set aside off line to clean firearms.
A smith would be nice.
No slow fire B.S., provided the customer can prove competency to safely do double taps. Same with drawing from the holster.
Eject the morons who shoot: wrong target, target shoes, fellow shooters, etc.
Nice, helpful, knowledgable staff. Willing to admit it when they don't know something but, are happy to find out rather than give a bad answer.
Yearly fees that are not more expensive than going to the range would normally be if you went twice a month.
Competition shoots a couple times a month.
Classes, Instructors, etc. You can outsource these.
This is just a start. I'm sure others will add to it.

[Employee3]

Wow, thanks for all the information. We certainly will check out Iron Sights.

As far as free moving targets, it would certainly be a challenge, but what we are trying to do is "legitimize" shooting ranges.

Politically speaking, we (my buddy and I) believe that shooting/guns/ammo is still considered taboo by most. We aim to change that through professional sporting/target shooting. We don't think we'll change the "Kalifornia" climate from the top, but once ordinary voting citizens realize that Sacramento is treating us all like children, maybe we have a chance to change that notion...

Oops, this is getting into a political rant. Sorry - please don't move the thread. Yes, anyways thanks for the info and keep it coming!!

Another website we've been checking out is rangeinfo.org which seems to be the association of shooting ranges. While it's easy to find information about the technical aspects of the shooting ranges, we are interested in doing it "right" from the beginning. And doing it "right" means making it comfortable for shooters.

Thanks all!!!

-Eric

[blkA4alb]

and how about giving discounts to calguns memebers. a big thing for me though is that the service is good..as in no b***** workers

[Kruzr]

You will need an FFL and will be subject to walk-in inspection. You need approval of the county supervisors or city council and local law enforcement. There will be public hearings. Business licenses, hazardous material (ammo) storage permits (inspections by the Fire Dept. also,) emission permits for the exhaust blowers, waste storage permits for lead on the premises and a few others are also required.

It won't be easy unless you are in a very gun friendly area.

[Employee3]

You will need an FFL and will be subject to walk-in inspection. You need approval of the county supervisors or city council and local law enforcement. There will be public hearings. Business licenses, hazardous material (ammo) storage permits (inspections by the Fire Dept. also,) emission permits for the exhaust blowers, waste storage permits for lead on the premises and a few others are also required.

It won't be easy unless you are in a very gun friendly area.

Are you saying we'll need an FFL for transfers, or just an FFL in general? As far as everything else, we are aware of the technical aspects of the indoor shooting range. What we are most interested in are the "soft" aspects that you, as shooters, expect or wish-list for an indoor shooting center.

We don't expect it to be easy. Usually, anything worth it isn't easy.

Thanks,

Eric

[Employee3]

and how about giving discounts to calguns memebers. a big thing for me though is that the service is good..as in no b***** workers

Sorry... don't know what the b**** was... maybe PM me with it.

Thanks,

Eric

[grammaton76]

Hmm, if you DO go with the two room scenario, it would be really neat if you were to put in a way for left-right movement to take place in at least one of the two rooms.

One other big thing - if you're going to try and get people into shooting, you need a good assortment of rental guns. That's a given.

[Kruzr]

Are you saying we'll need an FFL for transfers, or just an FFL in general? As far as everything else, we are aware of the technical aspects of the indoor shooting range. What we are most interested in are the "soft" aspects that you, as shooters, expect or wish-list for an indoor shooting center.

We don't expect it to be easy. Usually, anything worth it isn't easy.

Thanks,

Eric

If you are going to rent guns, or do transfers or take money for anything to do with shipping in or storing or shipping out guns, you need an FFL.

[Tool]

A buddy and I are considering opening an indoor shooting range here in southern San Diego county.

Well, for starters - you'd have my support!


As for role models, you need to make a road trip to Scottsdale, and check out the >>>Scottsdale Gun Club.<<< I'd nominate that place as THE #1 Shooting Center in the US! Programmable targets (distance, rotation with intervals etc. - this is a high-end shop! (Note: I think Magnolia Range, altho small, has some similar equipment... anyone help me here?)


Locally, I think >>>American Shooting Center<<< has the bar fairly high - plenty of helpful staff, good equipment and ventilation, so forth... but that's all been covered.


I wonder if you would face less hurdles if you set up OUTSIDE of cirty limits; then you only deal with county bs. I'd contact the NRA for possible assistance; I know they offer insurance to instructors at a reasonable cost... maybe they have a program to help with small business development / new range owners? Hey, it's a thought...


As for the business aspect: offer instruction for newbies. Encourage clubs to hold competitions - like bullseye competition and also IDPA is a good indoor activity - or just NRA Marksmanship Qualification shoots.


My thought on the FFL aspect: there are plenty of folks who hold FFL's in town; I'd bet you can hook up with someone who would align their license with you for a mutual win/win... rather than going thru the headache of getting your own FFL.


And KEEP ME POSTED how things progress! I'd LOVE to help get a range in South SD. How can I help??? PM me if you'd like to continue this.

[johnny_22]

National Association Of Shooting Ranges (part of NSSF)

They have suggestions and a 5 star rating system. The system is quite thorough. The only range I have seen that comes close to getting 5 stars is Reeds Indoor Range in Santa Clara.

http://www.rangeinfo.org/PDF/NASR_rating_system.pdf

[taloft]

(Note: I think Magnolia Range, altho small, has some similar equipment... anyone help me here?)

http://www.magrange.com/