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[Paul]

I seem to recall that you may be armed in internation waters but have to comply with the national ones inside their waters. This would be a huge problem as you visit those socialist paradises like Mexico where weapons are only permitted in the very rich or police hands. Where do you put your case of full-auto .30 caliber machine guns when you sail into port?

[mike100]

I looked it up... the flag you fly pretty much determines what/who can enforce on your vessel. If the us navy or CG boards your boat in intl waters, it is US soil. I was reading that british flagged vessels can only (normally) have shotguns, and to have other arms means that they have to be declared or ditched when returning home.

I recall a story on another forum about a guy who sailed through the panama canal. he brought a mini-14 or two. the winds that summer weren't working in his favor an he decided to go into Mx to get diesel fuel. mini's went to Davy Jones's Locker, he got fuel and made it to Florida...Picked up a new mini-14 later on to replace it (It's a Ruger-they'll make more). I felt bad about the hundreds of rounds of ammo he had to toss though.

[CSACANNONEER]

What was the documentary called? I had a friend that was directing one on the very same subject until the project ran out of cash. I wonder if someone else finished it? He told me a little about the subject. The pirates have be known to use black helicopters to board the vessel, they are very proffessional and efficient when it comes to nuetralizing any opposition to their actions. Every time a cargo ship is taken over, it's a multi millon dollar operation and a few lifes are insignifacant when it comes to that amount of profit. Even though many captains have the ability to arm their crews (there are weapons on board), the pirates come in with such tactical stealth that there is no time for the crews to be issued any firearms. Also, the normal crew on a cargo ship is no match for the well trained and experienced solder of fortune types that make up these tactical pirate crews.

[gwl]

I saw part of that same show. I suppose it can't escalate any higher than having everyone on the ship killed.

CSACANNONEER is correct in stating that these pirates strike with speed and stealth. (I'm thinking large container ship here) Unless the crew is already armed and on some type of overwatch , it would take too long for the ships crew to properly arm themselves and react in time to repel the boarders.

[ke6guj]

I recall a story on another forum about a guy who sailed through the panama canal. he brought a mini-14 or two. the winds that summer weren't working in his favor an he decided to go into Mx to get diesel fuel. mini's went to Davy Jones's Locker, he got fuel and made it to Florida...Picked up a new mini-14 later on to replace it (It's a Ruger-they'll make more). I felt bad about the hundreds of rounds of ammo he had to toss though.

That was Matt Bracken, IIRC. The author of the novel, Enemies Foreign and Domestic. A good pro-gun novel, http://www.enemiesforeignanddomestic.com/

[tankerman]

I saw part of that same show. I suppose it can't escalate any higher than having everyone on the ship killed.

CSACANNONEER is correct in stating that these pirates strike with speed and stealth. (I'm thinking large container ship here) Unless the crew is already armed and on some type of overwatch , it would take too long for the ships crew to properly arm themselves and react in time to repel the boarders.

What are you talking about? These vessels have multiple radars that will pick up a skiff. The pigeon holes need to be protected, a cargo ship has enough freeboard that if the pigeon holes are taken out of the equation then there is really no other path for the pirates to board. There are always multiple people on watch. Negligence is how you get boarded. BTW an 1100 foot cargo ship making 20+ knots does not need to stop for a little stealthy pirate skiff, it's far more treacherous for the skiff to be along side the ship.
Any third world foreign port has people that will try to board your ship at night in the anchorage.

[gwl]

What are you talking about? These vessels have multiple radars that will pick up a skiff. The pigeon holes need to be protected, a cargo ship has enough freeboard that if the pigeon holes are taken out of the equation then there is really no other path for the pirates to board. There are always multiple people on watch. Negligence is how you get boarded. BTW an 1100 foot cargo ship making 20+ knots does not need to stop for a little stealthy pirate skiff, it's far more treacherous for the skiff to be along side the ship.
Any third world foreign port has people that will try to board your ship at night in the anchorage.

OK, you got me. I reread my post and I have no clue this side of Parker Brothers on what the heck I am talking about.

A friend of mine used to work on a cargo ship for a few years and I remember him telling me a big fear of the crew (a few, some, all ???) was getting boarded in certain parts of the world. Where about, he never mentioned but it left the impression to me that if they were ever to be boarded they would have a difficult time defending themselves.

I agree with you, it's more than likely due to negligence than anything else.

[t001]

It would be very difficult to fend off a determined attack from pirates unless you are a warship or carry heavy weapons, most of which aren't going to be available to civilian vessels. Keep in mind that merchant vessels really don't have all that big of a crew onboard, and it's a thin line between the "pirates" and the local "navies" in many instances. So you can arm the crew to the teeth, but the pirates will still probably get you in the end, if they really want. Vigilance is certainly key, as it allows you to do a few things to defend yourself, like try to outrun them, but even if you know they're coming, it may be moot anyways. Fully laden merchant ships and tankers don't always have insurmountable freeboards, and most of them are not the hulking giants that one may think of. Many are 1~5,000 ton rustbuckets which can be boarded even when underway.

Not saying ships shouldn't arm themselves. Just saying that small arms may not be much use when the pirates have something they want, be it the ship or the cargo. Heck, they're even attacking cruise ships and naval vessels off the coast of Somalia. May not be smart, but desperation begets desparate actions. Indonesia-Malaysia-Singapore started a joint anti-piracy maritime patrol a few years ago in the Strait of Malacca. It's helping, but smaller, less-high profile vessels, especially fishing boats, are still being jacked for "passage money" there and around Indian Ocean coasts. Many masters on the fishing boats that ply the South China Seas buy guns illegally from places like the Phillipines to keep on their boats, but whether that's to defend their boats from pirates or themselves from the crews is debatable. Every year a few of those get jacked by their crews. Masters and/or other officers murdered, and the boats sailed back to the crews' home islands.

There was one incident where one of the ultra low temperature longliners was transiting through the area on its way back to Taiwan when it came under attack, and the pirates strafed the vessel. The boat managed to outrun the pirates. The master got it in the foot and another officer got it in the stomach I believe. They were able to put into Singapore for emergency. The master kept a satellite phone line open to the base as kinda of "in case I don't survive..." deal, and the running commentary was intense to say the least.

[Scarecrow Repair]

What are you talking about? These vessels have multiple radars that will pick up a skiff. The pigeon holes need to be protected, a cargo ship has enough freeboard that if the pigeon holes are taken out of the equation then there is really no other path for the pirates to board. There are always multiple people on watch. Negligence is how you get boarded. BTW an 1100 foot cargo ship making 20+ knots does not need to stop for a little stealthy pirate skiff, it's far more treacherous for the skiff to be along side the ship.
Any third world foreign port has people that will try to board your ship at night in the anchorage.

I think you are talking out your hat. First, most people vastly overesitmate what radar can do. Merchant ship radar is navigation radar, meant to pick up the coastline and rivers and bridges and other ships. A zodiac with a few men and rifles and a big motor isn't much of a radar target. Even a skiboat might not return enough radar echo. Maybe they can pick it up, but until someone who knows says otherwise, I don't think it likely.

Second, 20+ knots is nothing; these pirates run around in speedboats and fast Zodiacs. They can easily match speeds, and your 1100 foot cargo ship isn't nimble.

Third, cargo ships run with very small crews, 20-30 total, including shift work, officers, and bottlewashers.

So here's how I would do it if I were a pirate. I'd zoom in from behind or ahead, make the intercept path simple, come alongside and fling grappling hooks over the side, swarm up, and be on board and ready to shoot in 30 seconds.

Out of that entire crew, how many do you think are actually out and about? The ones on duty are on the bridge or in the engine room or fixing something, almost certainly below decks. On watch isn't like a military ship, with old WW II style lookouts with binocs. They are watching engine room gauges or bridge monitors and listening to the radio. The ones off duty are mostly eating or sleeping. This isn't a cruise ship; they've seen the ocean and weather and stars a zillion times, and are probably watching TV or movies or playing cards in some nice warm / air conditioned cabin away from the weather.

Suppose one of the crew does see or hear the grappling hook come over the side. He's got about 10 seconds before there's an armed pirate facing him. This crew isn't wandering around on sentry duty, he has no weapon. So he yells -- now what? By the time any one comes out on the bridge wing to see what he's yelling about, the pirate has already killed him or thrown him overboard.

If some wandering crew hears and sees the Zodiac, all he can do is raise the alarm a minute sooner, at most. The ship still can't maneuver away, and the zodiac chooses the point of boarding. Since they also get to choose the target, they might just run out of sight and pick another ship or come back in half an hour. This is no military crew. They have movies and card games to get back to, and there's probably only a half dozen available for impromptu lookout duty in the first place.

[Scarecrow Repair]

Heck, I'll add to my own post :-)

Even if the merchant radar picks up Zodiacs or fast boats, there's no IFF to tag it as a pirate. If the ship has any other local traffic, it could just be lost in the clutter, maybe it's the pilot boat, maybe it's a liberty boat, maybe it's a bum boat selling stuff.

And even if the crew decides it's a pirate, what are they going to do? They can't dodge it: the aodiac is faster and more maneuvarable. Suppose they arm themselves from the locker -- now they have a nice stable shooting platform, but the target is dodging and weaving and shooting back. The crew has to score a good hit to discourage the pirates, whereas the pirates only have to make a few hits on nearby steel to make the crew nervous. The pirates probably have RPGs -- the crew won't, and even if they did, the pirates have a bigger more stable target.

The pirates will win 99% of the time, and the 1% they don't will be when they break off the action. They will always have easy targets.

[eviioiive]

This thread makes me happy, much better than arguing about silly zombies. The ships radar is only as good as the person watching it. I've spent some time on ships and have actually boarded a ship underway, and made it to the bridge where i encountered the captain who asked how i got on the ship.... its hard but doable... on a side note I was actually in the show from the original post for about .5 of a second woo..

[tankerman]

Thanks for telling me all about the business I'm in...........How many years have you been a Merchant sailor? What license do you possess, Captain?

Do you really think we would be able to sail through SF bay or the Santa Barbara channel using radar that would not pick up small boats? We do not use WWII technology, very small personal watercraft can be picked up even in very poor weather conditions.

A ship being nimble has nothing to do with thwarting an attack, it has to do with accessibility. t001, tried to thow tank ships into the mix, yes because a loaded tank ship would not have much in the way of freeboard, but container ships always has plenty of freeboard. A tanker is not concerned with the sea rolling across the its deck, a container ship does not want that situation.

I personally do not believe you have any idea what you are talking about.

Thanks for calling me out and then supporting your claims with factual evidence

I think you are talking out your hat. First, most people vastly overesitmate what radar can do. Merchant ship radar is navigation radar, meant to pick up the coastline and rivers and bridges and other ships. A zodiac with a few men and rifles and a big motor isn't much of a radar target. Even a skiboat might not return enough radar echo. Maybe they can pick it up, but until someone who knows says otherwise, I don't think it likely.

Second, 20+ knots is nothing; these pirates run around in speedboats and fast Zodiacs. They can easily match speeds, and your 1100 foot cargo ship isn't nimble.

Third, cargo ships run with very small crews, 20-30 total, including shift work, officers, and bottlewashers.

So here's how I would do it if I were a pirate. I'd zoom in from behind or ahead, make the intercept path simple, come alongside and fling grappling hooks over the side, swarm up, and be on board and ready to shoot in 30 seconds.

Out of that entire crew, how many do you think are actually out and about? The ones on duty are on the bridge or in the engine room or fixing something, almost certainly below decks. On watch isn't like a military ship, with old WW II style lookouts with binocs. They are watching engine room gauges or bridge monitors and listening to the radio. The ones off duty are mostly eating or sleeping. This isn't a cruise ship; they've seen the ocean and weather and stars a zillion times, and are probably watching TV or movies or playing cards in some nice warm / air conditioned cabin away from the weather.

Suppose one of the crew does see or hear the grappling hook come over the side. He's got about 10 seconds before there's an armed pirate facing him. This crew isn't wandering around on sentry duty, he has no weapon. So he yells -- now what? By the time any one comes out on the bridge wing to see what he's yelling about, the pirate has already killed him or thrown him overboard.

If some wandering crew hears and sees the Zodiac, all he can do is raise the alarm a minute sooner, at most. The ship still can't maneuver away, and the zodiac chooses the point of boarding. Since they also get to choose the target, they might just run out of sight and pick another ship or come back in half an hour. This is no military crew. They have movies and card games to get back to, and there's probably only a half dozen available for impromptu lookout duty in the first place.

[MysteryCereal]

This thread gets better and better...Arrrgh mateys....arrrgh.

[tankerman]

Liberty boat, pilot boat, bum boats? So you think these are common occurences while a vessel is underway?

Pilot boats are scheduled
Liberty boats are sheduled, while you are at anchor.
Bum boats? WTF? Selling what? While you are underway?

Every object that's picked up by radar is captured as a target and its course is plotted by the radar, all information on all targets is displayed on one of several radars on the bridge, including CPA, speed and course.

Our ships carry pigeon hole covers so "pirates" can not just climb up the side.

Even if the merchant radar picks up Zodiacs or fast boats, there's no IFF to tag it as a pirate. If the ship has any other local traffic, it could just be lost in the clutter, maybe it's the pilot boat, maybe it's a liberty boat, maybe it's a bum boat selling stuff.

And even if the crew decides it's a pirate, what are they going to do? They can't dodge it: the aodiac is faster and more maneuvarable. Suppose they arm themselves from the locker -- now they have a nice stable shooting platform, but the target is dodging and weaving and shooting back. The crew has to score a good hit to discourage the pirates, whereas the pirates only have to make a few hits on nearby steel to make the crew nervous. The pirates probably have RPGs -- the crew won't, and even if they did, the pirates have a bigger more stable target.

The pirates will win 99% of the time, and the 1% they don't will be when they break off the action. They will always have easy targets.

[t001]

For cacas and giggles, here's an interesting link: Map of piracy activities. It shows some details of how some of the piracy acts are perpetrated and evaded. Many piracies are committed while the ships/boats are at anchorage, but some are attacked while underway. It can be done and has been done. There are probably several USCG or USN personnel on this board who have done it, among others, (Edited for clarification: Boarding while underway, not piracy, sorry ).

Large container ships are usually not piracy targets. Piracies are usually committed in littoral waters. True high-seas piracy is very rare. Your Panamaxes and Suezmaxes usually don't hug the coastlines too much. And their ships and cargo are typically not of much interest to pirates. Who knows if you might get high value electronics in one container and bunch of stuffed toys in the next. Now tankers and bulk carriers on the other hand are prime targets. Not your VLCC's and ULCC's typically , but again, the smaller ones (500~5,000, maybe 10,000 tons for example) as well as the smaller container ships. Their cargo is pretty untraceable, and you can turn those rustbuckets into something useful pretty quickly and anonymously. Of course you have someone like those Somali pirates who jack ships for ransoms. Well, even there it's probably better to jack a cruise ship full of people than a container ship. More of a political statement that way, as silly as it may be.

Like someone said, the best radar is only as good as the person watching it. The anchorage in Singapore can be worse than the shopping mall parking lot right before Christmas sometimes, especially on the scope. There're always things zipping about and zooming by. Even if you see them coming, it may be moot. What it gives you is the time to lock down and take evasive maneuvers if underway. Zig-zaging is actually a very effective move. By the time firearms come out on the good guys' side, it probably a fight-to-the-death situation.