LE sting attempts at Costa Mesa Gunshow

[Mac]

,,,,

[tyrist]

You guys really do not understand how undercover stings work. They cannot put the thought of the crime into your head. You have to use very distict language.

In the prostitution example the Offficer is not allowed to approach the suspect and say I will pay you $20 dollars for sex. You have to find a way around it. You say things like "I got money". "You looking good tonight" etc. You have to get the suspect to committ the violation without placing the thought of the crime into their head.

People arrested for directing people to drug transactions are usually caught merely on camera recordings of them directing people to a dealer and then when you arrest the dealer you grab the hook as well for 182-11352HS.

In the gun buying example an Officer would say things like "do we have to do the whole paper work thing". Or "I got a record and I don't know if I can get approval". Somebody who is crimminal will just take the cash and hand them over the weapon. In both these cases you are not placing the idea of comitting the crime in their head. You are allowing the crimminal the option of coming up with a crime to solve the problem. Most of this stuff is recorded because the language used is so key to the case.

[Rob P.]

You guys really do not understand how undercover stings work. They cannot put the thought of the crime into your head. You have to use very distict language.

In the prostitution example the Offficer is not allowed to approach the suspect and say I will pay you $20 dollars for sex. You have to find a way around it. You say things like "I got money". "You looking good tonight" etc. You have to get the suspect to committ the violation without placing the thought of the crime into their head.

People arrested for directing people to drug transactions are usually caught merely on camera recordings of them directing people to a dealer and then when you arrest the dealer you grab the hook as well for 182-11352HS.

In the gun buying example an Officer would say things like "do we have to do the whole paper work thing". Or "I got a record and I don't know if I can get approval". Somebody who is crimminal will just take the cash and hand them over the weapon. In both these cases you are not placing the idea of comitting the crime in their head. You are allowing the crimminal the option of coming up with a crime to solve the problem. Most of this stuff is recorded because the language used is so key to the case.

Actually, while you're close in your analysis, LEO is merely prohibited from MAKING you commit the criminal act. They can lie to you all they want, they just can't force you into the crime.

Enticement is OK. Asking things like, "Hey buddy, can you hook me up with some coke"; or, "Dude, want to go get high?" or similar things like that are perfectly fine. The whole point is whether you are predisposed to commit the crime not whether they made you do it. In the hooker example, LEO usually doesn't tip their hand by coming right out and saying "Hey baby, I'll give you $50 for sex..." as that would not be in character and the woman would probably just walk away after giving them an earful. This is why they try to avoid the money issue up front - too obvious.

There are tons of cases on this. Use http://www.findlaw.com and search for "entrapment" in either the Federal or California section.

[Grouch]

You guys really do not understand how undercover stings work. They cannot put the thought of the crime into your head. You have to use very distict language.

In the prostitution example the Offficer is not allowed to approach the suspect and say I will pay you $20 dollars for sex. You have to find a way around it. You say things like "I got money". "You looking good tonight" etc. You have to get the suspect to committ the violation without placing the thought of the crime into their head.

People arrested for directing people to drug transactions are usually caught merely on camera recordings of them directing people to a dealer and then when you arrest the dealer you grab the hook as well for 182-11352HS.

In the gun buying example an Officer would say things like "do we have to do the whole paper work thing". Or "I got a record and I don't know if I can get approval". Somebody who is crimminal will just take the cash and hand them over the weapon. In both these cases you are not placing the idea of comitting the crime in their head. You are allowing the crimminal the option of coming up with a crime to solve the problem. Most of this stuff is recorded because the language used is so key to the case.

There is a lot of wrong in this post.

[Spiggy]

I realized on the seller's table paper agreement has an part that says that all firearms must be drosed, including C&R guns. It's in the second paragraph from the top. It explains the low amount of cash and carry .

So next gunshow run, I suggest carrying a copy of the laws to discuss with unwilling tables

[tyrist]

Enticement is OK. Asking things like, "Hey buddy, can you hook me up with some coke"; or, "Dude, want to go get high?" or similar things like that are perfectly fine. The whole point is whether you are predisposed to commit the crime not whether they made you do it. In the hooker example, LEO usually doesn't tip their hand by coming right out and saying "Hey baby, I'll give you $50 for sex..." as that would not be in character and the woman would probably just walk away after giving them an earful. This is why they try to avoid the money issue up front - too obvious.

There are tons of cases on this. Use http://www.findlaw.com and search for "entrapment" in either the Federal or California section.

by saying "hey baby, I'll give you $50 for sex" is not only "tipping your hand" but here the Officer has comitted a crime. Showing the suspect the money or saying I have money however is not soliticing for sex although you attempt to get the suspect to believe that.

As always Officers are of course allowed to lie to suspects as well as not having to identify themselves when working under cover although this myth has made more than a few busts possible.

[duenor]

Don't forget Sen Craig's "hand guesture" that landed him in hot hot hot hot water. Hell, I know all sorts of stuff I probably shouldnt, but I never would have known that waving your hand while youre sitting on the can constitutes solicitation of gay sex!

IOW, stay the **** away from people who smell like illegal activity.

"Man, this paperwork thing sucks. I don't care about the money, but this waiting period sucks. Can we just do this deal outside?"

"No, I'm afraid not. And, unfortunately, our conversation is over. Have a good day."

who knows what overzealous DA might be watching, hoping that you'll make some criminal hand guesture, slang term (did you know that "macaca" was a bad word?), or slip of tongue.

[EOD Guy]

No stings encountered, that is unless you count some dealers trying to get their own wrists slapped. Ran into two clowns Saturday trying to sell older off-list S&W revolvers as outright dealer sales.

First was Avalon Arms out of Mohave Valley, AZ.

From these, and past experiences with some now defunct transfer dealers at the show, I don't think LE would have to put too much effort into finding someone to bust. Some of these sellers seem to be doing a pretty good job of setting themselves up for a fall all on their own!!

There's a Federal violation itself. An Arizona dealer cannot sell at a California gun show, except for C&R firearms sales to another licensee. All he can do is take orders to be shipped from his licensed premises to a dealer in the purchaser's home state.

[CALI-gula]

CALI:

Please, never, never ever do that again. Please.

I only ask this for your own safety and because I like you. Please take no offense!

I know, I know. I'm too trusting sometimes. Amazingly, when I need to be skeptical my spider-sense kicks in, and keeps me from getting in hot, hot water. Long time in CA and I've never been taken or lost anything on a scam - ever.

(Except for trusting ex-girlfriends).

Oh, and except for all those times when I went to the polls here in CA and voted. BIGGEST SCAMS EVER!

.

[Hopi]

There's a Federal violation itself. An Arizona dealer cannot sell at a California gun show, except for C&R firearms sales to another licensee. All he can do is take orders to be shipped from his licensed premises to a dealer in the purchaser's home state.

IIRC, to comply with Fed. and State regs. a firearm from an out of state FFL must be transferred through a CA FFL, that can take place at a gun show.

-Original Purchase made
-AZ FFL contacts CA FFL for transfer
-AZ FFL transfer to CA FFL
-CA FFL completes DROS, charges buyer with transfer and DROS fees
-Buyer must wait the duration of the waiting period
-Buyer then picks up the gun from the CA FFL


Am I wrong here?

[FortCourageArmory]

IIRC, to comply with Fed. and State regs. a firearm from an out of state FFL must be transferred through a CA FFL, that can take place at a gun show.

-Original Purchase made
-AZ FFL contacts CA FFL for transfer
-AZ FFL transfer to CA FFL
-CA FFL completes DROS, charges buyer with transfer and DROS fees
-Buyer must wait the duration of the waiting period
-Buyer then picks up the gun from the CA FFL


Am I wrong here?

You are correct.

[allenst65]

IIRC, to comply with Fed. and State regs. a firearm from an out of state FFL must be transferred through a CA FFL, that can take place at a gun show.

-Original Purchase made
-AZ FFL contacts CA FFL for transfer
-AZ FFL transfer to CA FFL
-CA FFL completes DROS, charges buyer with transfer and DROS fees
-Buyer must wait the duration of the waiting period
-Buyer then picks up the gun from the CA FFL

Am I wrong here?

The AZ seller's whole table seemed setup for selling new handguns so I presumed this is the path they would have to take, i.e. handling like an out of state transfer even though they were selling at the show here in CA. For those specific used/trade-ins however, I knew this wouldn't fly so that is what prompted me to ask if they were doing them as PPTs/consignments.

I thought that for a dealer sale, the approved S&W models with specific dashes are called out during the DROS, so it's likely the older unapproved models would have made it past the transfer dealer when they started the DROS. Who knows, maybe they had some 'arrangement' with a local transfer dealer who just ignored the approved list as mentioned, however this seller clearly knew about the CA approved list issue and went so far as to claim they were approved for sale.

So, during the DROS entry on a true dealer sale (not consignment/PPT or otherwise exempt), doesn't the specific model number and revision appear on some drop down list and only these can be selected? If a dealer has on 'unapproved' model 64-3, what is to stop them from just selecting the 64-7 model in order to push it through the DROS? Unless audited, how can DOJ reconcile the actual model number entered vs the serial number?

[MicronuT]

It's sad that they're doing this were law abiding citizens go to get their weapons and accessories. Why don't they go to gang infested neighborhoods and try to clean that up? Maybe they think they might get hurt trying to do so....

what its turned into lately is that.. the investigators are no longer investigating... just entraping.. nice work huh. they mightve run out of real investigative work as of late. maybe they have an arrest quota.

[Hopi]

nice work huh. they mightve run out of real investigative work as of late.

You know, I always feel bad about the folks that dress up in Camo and Tactical gear that drop from helicopters into forests to hunt plants......sitting around the "who's job is more worthless" table gets a little crowded.......

[FortCourageArmory]

So, during the DROS entry on a true dealer sale (not consignment/PPT or otherwise exempt), doesn't the specific model number and revision appear on some drop down list and only these can be selected? If a dealer has on 'unapproved' model 64-3, what is to stop them from just selecting the 64-7 model in order to push it through the DROS? Unless audited, how can DOJ reconcile the actual model number entered vs the serial number?

In short...nothing prevents an FFL dealer from "fudging" on the make and model when it's DROS'd. However, the gun has to stay in my shop for the 10-day wait. If I were inspected during that time and this was turned up, how much trouble do you think I'd be in? It's not worth my license and a possible jail term for the few bucks that the out-of-state transfer will gain me.