Constructive Possession Question

[zombiescanlearn]

I own an AR. I own an AR Pistol. May I have multiple uppers of various length lying around the house or am I violating some SBR law?

In theory, the short barrel uppers can go on my AR, but I want to buy them for my AR pistol and have no intent on putting them on my AR. But intent is irrelevant when it comes to constructive possession. So, am I violating some SBR laws or can I have multiple SB uppers?

[Sgt. J Beezy]

AR Pistol = Good to Go
No AR Pistol = Constructive Possession

[rromeo]

Some people say don't have more SBR uppers than SBR/Pistol lowers. The way I read it and my council reads it, if you have one legal use, you have satisfied the law. Of course, don't have extra rifle lowers without an upper if you have extra, short barrel uppers.

[repubconserv]

Some people say don't have more SBR uppers than SBR/Pistol lowers. The way I read it and my council reads it, if you have one legal use, you have satisfied the law. Of course, don't have extra rifle lowers without an upper if you have extra, short barrel uppers.

I would say in your situation OP, this is the most important

[cabinetguy]

unfortunatly this is not a question that can be answered. you should be fine, as you are doing everything to the letter of the law, but as the above posts say, make sure your rifle lowers have uppers since that becomes a grey area

[ClarenceBoddicker]

No such thing as constructive possession when it comes to guns. Your gun stuff is either legal or illegal. The short barrel issue has been decided many times in Federal courts. The 1992 Thompson Contender SCOTUS case is pretty good. The basis for that ruling goes back to a 1950's IRS/ATTU (the old ATF) descision allowing the importation of an Italian .22 semi auto pocket pistol that could be installed into a rifle stock with a 16" barrel. ATF forgot about that prior ruling when they went after Thompson Center. There was an article about it in the Small Arms Review. CA of course can do what they want if/until you win the appeals of your conviction.

[chillincody]

extra uppers in your situlation would just be spare parts , as far as i understand it.

[Quiet]

No such thing as constructive possession when it comes to guns. Your gun stuff is either legal or illegal. The short barrel issue has been decided many times in Federal courts. The 1992 Thompson Contender SCOTUS case is pretty good. The basis for that ruling goes back to a 1950's IRS/ATTU (the old ATF) descision allowing the importation of an Italian .22 semi auto pocket pistol that could be installed into a rifle stock with a 16" barrel. ATF forgot about that prior ruling when they went after Thompson Center. There was an article about it in the Small Arms Review. CA of course can do what they want if/until you win the appeals of your conviction.

CA has constructive possession laws in regards to SBR, SBS and MG.

[zombiescanlearn]

No such thing as constructive possession when it comes to guns. Your gun stuff is either legal or illegal. The short barrel issue has been decided many times in Federal courts. The 1992 Thompson Contender SCOTUS case is pretty good. The basis for that ruling goes back to a 1950's IRS/ATTU (the old ATF) descision allowing the importation of an Italian .22 semi auto pocket pistol that could be installed into a rifle stock with a 16" barrel. ATF forgot about that prior ruling when they went after Thompson Center. There was an article about it in the Small Arms Review. CA of course can do what they want if/until you win the appeals of your conviction.

That really didn't answer my question did it?

[mdib870]

as i understand ar uppers are just legal spare parts.... now if u had a m16 fcg now u would have a problem

[Decoligny]

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE: 17170. As used in Sections 16530 and 16640, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4 of Division 6 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(a) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(b) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(c) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Designed and INTENDED are the key words in the CA PC.

If you have an AR Pistol, you intend to use all the short barrel uppers on the pistol, and you have no intent to use them on the AR Rifle lower. This is made evident by your possession of legal length uppers for your AR Rifle lower.

They could arrest you, they could attempt to prosecute you, but they would have to prove that you intended to convert the AR Rifle into a short barrel rifle.

One thing that will probably help is to keep the short barrel uppers with the AR Pistol lower, and keep the AR Rifle lower with the long barrel uppers, and keep them seperated. There is no legal requirement to do so, but it does help clearly establish your intent to only use them for their respective lowers.

If any problems arise, you could even refer them back to this thread to prove you did your due dilligence and attempted to be 100% sure you were in compliance with the law.

[ClarenceBoddicker]

That really didn't answer my question did it?

Did you research the Thompson Contender 1992 case? There is a section on the ATF website about it also. In short yes you can legally own a less than 16" barrel, as long as you have a pistol it will fit.

In regards to any CA anti-gun law, yours and any other people's questions can't be answered definitively. CA DOJ is very hostile to gun ownership & will no longer respond to citizens questions in letter form. You will have to ask your DA or a lawyer for their opinion. In CA, gun law interpretations are made by LEO's/depts, DA's, Judges & Juries. In most states the DOJ does the interpretations of the laws & everyone else follows them. The ATF will happily respond to your legal questions with a letter.

[ClarenceBoddicker]

CA has constructive possession laws in regards to SBR, SBS and MG.

What are the PC #'s?

[Quiet]

What are the PC #'s?

MG = PC 16880(b)
SBR = PC 17170(e)
SBS = PC 17180(e)


Penal Code 16880
(b) The term "machinegun" also includes the frame or receiver of any weapon described in subdivision (a), any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

Penal Code 17170
As used in Sections 16530 and 16640, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4 of Division 6 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Penal Code 17180
As used in Sections 16530 and 16640, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4 of Division 6 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.