Does Size Really Matter?

[Stjohn]

Ran across this interesting article on the CTD website. It goes against conventional wisdom re handgun size in self defense situations.

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=21790&utm_source=EmailDirect.com&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Chronicle+Vol+1+Issue+1

[dadoody]

Depends on how valid you think his study is.

I go with 40 S&W and 45acp for handguns personally. I prefer semi-auto to revolver for self-defense as well due to 2 law enforcement encounters I've read about:

1.) The Newhall Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_massacre
2.) The Miami Incident: http://www.rrmemphis.com/op030.html

[voiceofreason]

The following is just personal opinion. I am not a physician or otherwise an expert on wound ballistics.

---

Yes, the .45 is larger when unexpanded and usually larger when expanded than a 9mm.

It is almost twice the weight of a 9mm. Yet it penetrates around the same depth and expands fairly close to the same diameter.

Why? Because they are designed for what the bullet makers believe to be optimal penetration with as much expansion as possible.

We're at a level of technology that we can make a 9mm bullet perform similarly to a .45.

I believe the .45 has an edge in expansion, penetration, and the ability to defeat barriers.

I believe the 9mm has slightly less recoil and may be easier to place shots on target accurately and follow up with.

The power levels below 9mm begin to suffer significantly as far as reaching a balance of significant penetration with reasonable expansion.

You can make a .22 penetrate 12" of ballistic gelatin.

You can make a .22 expand.

You're not going to get 12" penetration with a .65" or larger expanded diameter.

9mm, .40. 45 are the "best value" as far as balance and are far and away better than the calibers below it.

From .45. on up, 10mm (my favorite round), .45 super, .45 win mag... you get progressively less for your recoil and muzzle blast.

They still penetrate the required distance, they still expand, with more of both, but you've reached a point of diminishing returns.

Which is why 9mm, .40, .45 are the most popular self defense calibers. Because in conjunction with choosing the specific load, they provide a very narrow spectrum from which to tailor what YOU want out of a cartridge.

More penetration? Better barrier penetration? Level of recoil, etc.

9mm, .40. .45

there are far more similarities between these loads than there are differences regarding terminal ballistics, just slightly different routes to get there

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I would vehemently disagree that a .22 would serve as well as a .45, or a .45 as well as a shotgun.

Yes, most people stop when they realize they've been shot. Regardless of caliber.

If you are unfortunate enough to be dealing with an assailant that refuses to stop, then like a rabid dog, they are going to need to be put down against their will.

I would not bet the lives of my loved ones on a .22 with any confidence.

I believe 5 shots of .45 to the upper thoracic cavity would be effective in most cases.

I believe in the stopping power of a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 or #1 buck loads. 2 shots to the chest with a 12 gauge would be effective in most cases.

If the above does not work, assume he's wearing body armor and switch target to the head.

[elSquid]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

-- Michael

[bombadillo]

I personally run .357mag, .45acp and 12ga for my HD guns. I have a 9mm single stack so its thin and easy to conceal for a LTC gun. The new 9mm +P or +P+ rounds are hot little rounds now and things like Federal HST, Critical Defense, Ranger-T, Remington Golden Saber, Winchester PDX-1 and others are becoming better and better rounds. They're designed to both penetrate clothing on some of those, and expansion is really really good on the others. The +P+ rounds are hot enough for me that they become almost too snappy in my carry gun to make it effective so I use +P and call it good. I personally carry either Winchester Ranger-T or Federal HST in my 2 primary handguns. I tried Critical Defense by Hornady and really liked it but I was MUCH more accurate with the HST.

Anyway, 9mm can stop plenty and always remember placement and accuracy is going to trump a big round to the thigh. If you can take your 9mm and put 5 shots in a quarter at 3 yards, and can only put them at 4" with a .45 (besides needing to practice more ) I would say use the one you're more accurate with.

[Supertac916]

Found this quote interesting.

He concluded, “In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don’t want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these ‘psychological stops’ occurring.”

That's the problem... How do you know if your attacker will have a "psychological stop" or keep coming at you because he's hopped up on adrenaline or narcotics? I don't want to risk my life or my families life by hoping the attacker will just say "I'm shot, I give up!!". I prefer to use a larger caliber .40, .45, 00 Buck, .223, or .308.

Also, I won't test out the one shot stop theory. I will shoot until the threat is over and you won't see me shoot once, stop, see if he gives up, and then shoot him again, if he keeps coming. I always do double or triple taps in training at a minimum.

[Merc1138]

Get the biggest caliber you can shoot/carry. Shoot till the threat has stopped. Shot placement matters. CTD sucks.

[The War Wagon]

Get the biggest caliber you can shoot/carry. Shoot till the threat has stopped. Shot placement matters. CTD sucks.

I'd add something to that, but... you said it all!

[Stjohn]

Excellent points & good discussion.

[Mr. Meeseeks]

Get the biggest caliber you can shoot/carry. Shoot till the threat has stopped. Shot placement matters. CTD sucks.

Well said.




^^^^LOL

[bigstones]

Depends on how valid you think his study is.

I go with 40 S&W and 45acp for handguns personally. I prefer semi-auto to revolver for self-defense as well due to 2 law enforcement encounters I've read about:

1.) The Newhall Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_massacre
2.) The Miami Incident: http://www.rrmemphis.com/op030.html

A 9mm v 45ACP thread? We've never had one of those.

I read the accounts you cited. Interesting, but in neither case did LE appear to be outgunned. The problem appears to be a lack of coordinated planning and training including firearms training.

In both encounters the most effective weapon seems to be the shotgun.

My home defense priorities are shotgun, .40 S&W semi auto and 1911 .45ACP.

[MrExel17]

Niice topic and interesting read. I still would stick with .45 and shotgun.

[Yemff]

I personally run .357mag

I run trojan mags sorry couldn't help myself

[greybeard]

Get the biggest caliber you can shoot/carry. Shoot till the threat has stopped. Shot placement matters.

This if somebody cannot shot a .40 worth a damn, but can dot the eye with a .22. They are better served carry a .22
My own case, I cannot shot a 9 mm Glock worth a damn but a .45 Glock well. Guess what I use for self defense.

[calif 15-22]

Get the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately/carry. Shoot till the threat has stopped. Shot placement matters. CTD sucks.

Well said but missing 1 word (see above)