Should FFLs be allowed to charge more than $35 for a PPT?

[TonyNorCal]

California State Law limits dealers to $35 for a PPT* transfer. The breakdown is $25 to the state and $10 to the dealer.

The reason for this is likely to encourage people to use an FFL to facillitate a legal transfer. Since most firearms in CA require an FFL, having a minimal fee encourages compliance.

However, a dealer or those sympathetic can make an argument that only allowing a $10 profit for all the work involved (paperwork, time, dealing with the customer twice, storage, etc) is unfair and contrary to running a profitable business.

So, do you think an FFL should be permitted to charge more for a PPT?

*Just to be clear...

a PPT is when both parties (buyer and seller) are present at the FFL to conduct the transfer. This is what's limited to $35.

When a customer has an item sent to an FFL (doesn't matter from where) then the FFL is free to charge whatever he wishes for his fee.

I include this because it seems people tend to confuse the different types of transfers and fees allowed.

[RP1911]

A dealer may charge more than $35.00 for a PPT. As long as the dealer specifically breaks down the charges for anything over $35.00 and is upfront with it.

[bohoki]

A dealer may charge more than $35.00 for a PPT. As long as the dealer specifically breaks down the charges for anything over $35.00 and is upfront with it.

really hmm i thought there was a law

[John Browning]

A dealer may charge more than $35.00 for a PPT. As long as the dealer specifically breaks down the charges for anything over $35.00 and is upfront with it.

The law is very specific. They cannot charge fees that total more than $35, and they cannot refuse to do the transfer if you don't agree to buy something else or pay them anything beyond $35. $35, that's it. To add: If they want to break down the $10 they get, they certainly can. They can charge you 56 cents for ink, 44 cents for oxygen use, 1.20 for carbon dioxide emission, $7 for storage and 80 cents for electricity, but THE LAW IS VERY CLEAR, THE TOTAL FEES CANNOT EXCEED $35.

The DOJ and the ATF are always looking for a good reason to revoke a FFL, and this would be considered good enough reason to pull your ticket to the firearms dealing party. It may not be the most profitable or enjoyable adventure, but having a FFL is not all sunshine and rainbows. You can risk your entire livelyhood for $10, but that probably isn't a smart move.

[M. Sage]

Other:

They should be able to charge whatever they feel like, but PPT should be allowed without a dealer or other third party. Problem solved.

[rue]

Hmm,
I just did one the other day where both parties were present(me and the other guy) and the FFL is charging me $50.. He said I can pay when I pick it up but should I say something? I emailed him asking him what the charge was and he said $50
I also bought 2 OLL's and he said they can't be on the same DROS which I get and I did a separate DROS for the lowers @ $50 for both lowers but since both of us were present and I didn't need his FFL to have the pistol shipped isn't it just a separate transaction PPT?

[M. Sage]

Wow, Rue. That guy is BSing you big time.

You can do multiple long guns on one DROS. Max PPT charge is $35. Oh, and they can't refuse to do a PPT.

Not that I agree with limiting the max charge, but the other option would be to allow gun owners to do PPT without requiring a third party... which is how it should be. As it is now, everybody's rights are getting shredded.

[John Browning]

Hmm,
I just did one the other day where both parties were present(me and the other guy) and the FFL is charging me $50.. He said I can pay when I pick it up but should I say something? I emailed him asking him what the charge was and he said $50
I also bought 2 OLL's and he said they can't be on the same DROS which I get and I did a separate DROS for the lowers @ $50 for both lowers but since both of us were present and I didn't need his FFL to have the pistol shipped isn't it just a separate transaction PPT?

If it is for just a PPT, he can't charge you $50. He will probably give you your $15 back if you ask him about it, unless he wants you to put in a call to DOJ.

I'm not sure about the details on the second part, but the lowers can be on the same DROS if they are from the same party as the other gun you bought. They are also $35 for one, and $10 I believe for the other.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#8

If he won't treat you fairly, you can always throw him under the bus and call DOJ. It certainly isn't nice, but neither is theft, which he is trying to do to you.

[Satex]

The reason for this is likely to encourage people to use an FFL to facillitate a legal transfer. Since most firearms in CA require an FFL, having a minimal fee encourages compliance.

However, a dealer or those sympathetic can make an argument that only allowing a $10 profit for all the work involved (paperwork, time, dealing with the customer twice, storage, etc) is unfair and contrary to running a profitable business.

So, do you think an FFL should be permitted to charge more for a PPT?

I disagree with your analysis. DROS is a required process, so there is nothing about fee control to "encourage" people to use it. The fee is probably restricted because of NRA pressure to prevent it from becoming a method to prevent gun ownership, i.e. a $5,000 per firearms DROS fee would help significantly reduce gun ownership.

Since DROS is a legal process, the fees should be controlled. Fair allotment is made to compensate the dealer for his time and most important - the dealer makes his money on the firearm, not on the DROS.

[rue]

Well the long gun part of my dealings with him was for two lowers I ordered from out of state where I had him send his FFL info to them so he charged me $50 for that and told me It would be the same for 1 lower or 5 lowers it didn't go up if I bought more than 1.

When I went to do the paperwork I brought a friend along with a pistol and wanted to do a PPT as well (different transaction). He's saying it's $50 for both transactions so I'm a little confused what to do here. I never paid him yet but after reading the PC code it's seems clear to me it's a max. charge of $35 for a pistol PPT.

[kermit315]

I would print out the PC and take it with you when you go to pick up. If he still gives you a hard time, tell him you are calling DOJ, and then do it. JMO, but there is no room for trying to steal money from somebody for a service that is required. That is the same as DMV charging you more for your plates than what you actually have to pay, so they make more money.

I voted for no, however wanted to be more like Illinois, I sell you something, you pay me and we go about our business. There is more to it than that, but no third party to pay and definately no 10 day wait.

[joe_sun]

Other:

They should be able to charge whatever they feel like, but PPT should be allowed without a dealer or other third party. Problem solved.

Exactly what I was going to post.

[RP1911]

really hmm i thought there was a law

Correct for PPT. i screwed up (temp memory malfunction and confusion with dealer sale).

Here is the pertinent info from DOJ's website:

How much is the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) fee?

The State's DROS fee is $19.00 which covers the costs of the background checks and transfer registry. There is also a required $1.00 Firearms Safety Testing fee and a $5.00 Safety and Enforcement fee. If the transaction being processed is a dealer sale, consignment return, or return from pawn, the dealer may impose other charges as long as this amount is clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and not misrepresented as a state fee. In the event of a private party transfer, the firearms dealer may additionally charge a fee of $10 per firearm transferred.

When settling on the purchase price of a firearm and before completing the transaction, you may want to ask the dealer to disclose and identify any and all fees he/she is charging to complete the transaction.

(PC Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806)



I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.
(PC section 12072(d))

Sorry about my hasty response before.

[Fjold]

Well the long gun part of my dealings with him was for two lowers I ordered from out of state where I had him send his FFL info to them so he charged me $50 for that and told me It would be the same for 1 lower or 5 lowers it didn't go up if I bought more than 1.

When I went to do the paperwork I brought a friend along with a pistol and wanted to do a PPT as well (different transaction). He's saying it's $50 for both transactions so I'm a little confused what to do here. I never paid him yet but after reading the PC code it's seems clear to me it's a max. charge of $35 for a pistol PPT.

He treated you fairly on the two lowers DROS.

He can only charge you $35 for the pistol PPT.

[gmcal]

I think they should be able charge a little more, say $50 total instead of $35. They aren't really spending that much time on it, should be less than 1 hour total. If you allowed dealers to charge whatever they wanted, many would jack up the price so it would be cheaper to buy from them, and private individuals selling used firearms could get hosed on prices. I understand why they charge for internet sales, but PPT doesn't cost them potential sales. After an experience I had on Friday, I think there should be definition of interenet sales.