Switch handguns at Front Sight?

[Bert Gamble]

I am going for my second 4 day Defensive handgun class at Front Sight on the 20th and I am trying to decide if I want to use the Kimber 1911 that I used in the first class, or use my XD45.

I was not able to get the "Graduate" certificate on the first try because I was very slow at the malfunction drills due to the position of the mag release and slide lock on the Kimber. I just can't reach the controls using only my right hand, and it takes too much time to use both hands.

I am able to reach the release and slide lock with one hand using the XD, but I cannot manage the same accuracy with it. (I am spot on with the 1911 and was in good shape to earn Graduate before the malfunction part).

I keep the XD in the nightstand because I don't have to worry about the safety in the middle of the night (which I also cannot reach with my right thumb), but I would like to carry the 1911 if I ever get a CCW because I can draw it and shoot a nice controlled pair while meeting the Front Sight time limits.

I suppose it just seems like cheating if I use a gun that is faster in the drills just so I can get the certificate. I could really cheat and use one for shooting, and the other for drills, but that is going too far.

I am also signed up for the 2 Day Skill Builder the following week in case I don't make it this time either.

[Briancnelson]

Well, the purpose of training isn't to get a certificate. It's to be trained, and able to perform the tasks to spec.

If you can't perform malfunction drill on a gun adequately, what happens if you NEED it and it malfunctions....

On the other hand, if you shoot slightly larger groups with the XD, but all the shots would still be lethal, then what's the problem?

Pick a gun you can be accurate with AND perform malfunction drills, and don't worry about certificates.

[MP301]

Couple of things.

First, one of my friends didnt graduate his 4 day and they still let him do the advanced classes. As loing as you complete the 4 day, they know you can safely handle your gun. Her just signed up for it and got his confirmation, so maybe they dont check on whetehr you graduated or not, but if you call and ask, they might just say no.

If your going to swiutch guns, remember you are starting friom square one again because many things will be different bewteen the kimber and the XD. However, the presentation and many aspects are the same, so you could concertrate more on the differences I guess.

I have taken the 4 day and skill builder twice. The first time graduating witin a point or two of DG and of course it was malfuctions that pushed me ovber the edge. The second times for those classes I DGed.

I am taking another 4 day and I am alsio considering switching from my Sig 226 to the XD, but have not decided yet. I have already DGed, so learning a new gun would be good for me.

But since you have not graduated, you might not want to not add anything new to learn to mix just yet.

Also, my experience of Kimbers and that of many many people I know who have had them, you had better damn skippy learn your malfunction drills if your life is going to depend on that gun. They seem to be mroe prone to malfunctions.

And as far as reaching the release, I dont understand. You do not need to keep a firing grip on your weapon while manipulating it. I have to adjust my grip on my Sig when i do certain things and it does not slow me down in the least.

[billgato]

MP301,

How did your friend enroll in the advanced classes? When I log in to the Front Sight member's page, I see only the basic courses listed. I assumed that once you received DG for a particular course, the more advanced ones would become available.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks.

[MP301]

You probably right. Now that i think about it, he wasnt a member at the time and had a returning student cert that he faxed in. I guess they didnt check on is graduation status when they approved it?

So, I stand corrected. I guess the computer stops members from taking classes based on their status? I dont know. HAve you tried it since you have taken the class again online?

[E. Fudd]

I am going for my second 4 day Defensive handgun class at Front Sight on the 20th and I am trying to decide if I want to use the Kimber 1911 that I used in the first class, or use my XD45.

I was not able to get the "Graduate" certificate on the first try because I was very slow at the malfunction drills due to the position of the mag release and slide lock on the Kimber. I just can't reach the controls using only my right hand, and it takes too much time to use both hands.

I am able to reach the release and slide lock with one hand using the XD, but I cannot manage the same accuracy with it. (I am spot on with the 1911 and was in good shape to earn Graduate before the malfunction part).

I keep the XD in the nightstand because I don't have to worry about the safety in the middle of the night (which I also cannot reach with my right thumb), but I would like to carry the 1911 if I ever get a CCW because I can draw it and shoot a nice controlled pair while meeting the Front Sight time limits.

I suppose it just seems like cheating if I use a gun that is faster in the drills just so I can get the certificate. I could really cheat and use one for shooting, and the other for drills, but that is going too far.

I am also signed up for the 2 Day Skill Builder the following week in case I don't make it this time either.

If you don't mind me asking, do you have small hands or an extremely short thumb, since you said you can't reach the thumb safety, mag release button, and slide lock lever with your shooting hand? And if you can't reach the thumb safety with your right hand, how do you plan to shoot it if you got a CCW permit? I assume, then, you do all of the above with your left hand?

That could be a big problem is SD shooting. What if, right off the bat, the BG shoots/stabs you in the left arm/hand? You wouldn't be able to take the safety off to fire your gun?

If you can't operate those basic controls one-handed, I'd stick with the XD for all SD use.

If you have small hands, one trick to improve thumb reach on the controls is, with the help of your support hand, to rotate the gun in your right hand slightly to the left in your grip (while still keeping the muzzle in a safe direction). That will get you another 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 inch reach and might help you reach all three control levers/buttons.

If you try it and it works for you, then stick with the Kimber for the class, but bring a backup handgun in case Murphy strikes... : )

I've seen guys switch guns mid-way through a 4-day HG class, but usually going the other way. They start out with your basic service type pistol, then switched to a custom 1911. One of them DG'd the class, (one of the few in my class).

If you go 1911 to XD just for the test, the timing might be tricky. As you know, once they start the skills test, you start with the shooting tests, then move straight to the malfunction clearance tests. I guess if they switch squads during the shooting portion, then do the malf. tests later, when you squad goes off line, you could run back to the safe area and swap guns and holsters...

The XD is certainly accurate enough for you to graduate with. You probably just need more practice time with it.

Good luck!

[$P-Ritch$]

MP301 is right about the advanced courses, they don't check to see if you have a graduate stamp on file or not. They just want to keep novice gun handlers out of the advanced classes for safety purposes.

This first thing they do at the higher courses is a basic skills test identical to the one at the end of the four-day course. However, they are not scoring you, they are just observing your gun handling. If they feel you may be unsafe during the advanced course they bump you down to a beginner level class.

Don't worry so much about the speed as opposed to proper and safe technique. Speed will come in due time and after much practice.

[locosway]

You need to make a decision. If you feel you can't manipulate your 1911 in a fast enough manner, then why have it? It's a tool, and nothing more. If you can't use your tool, then get one you can use.

So, if you're looking for the easiest way to get a paper that says you "graduated" from their class, then run your XD and use that as your primary weapon. If you don't care about the paper and are more interested in learning the tool with more training then keep the 1911 and continue to train with it. Remember that you're only as good as your training. Having a nice 1911 is great, but if you can't use it as well as another gun, why carry it around? Do you want to wonder "what if?" all the time?

You may also want to be careful going from one gun with external safeties to another that doesn't have them. If you get comfortable with your XD and use that as your night stand gun, but then carry a 1911 for CCW purposes, you very well could mix up the gun and not remove your safety when you need to fire. This is one reason why I'm a big proponent of staying with one platform for your needs. If you want to use a XD as your nightstand gun, then do so, and when you carry maybe run a XD 3.8 or SC, this way the gun is the same just a little smaller.

Or, if you run a 1911 as your nightstand gun, then get a smaller 1911 for your CCW needs. This keeps things simple and will avoid any issues from running two very different platforms.

[eaglemike]

The XD is accurate enough to shoot DG. IMO it's a little more difficult to shoot accurately compared to the Kimber until you spend a lot of time with it. The class might help with this. Many people (including me) take time to adjust to a Glock, XD, stock M&P after shooting a nice single-action trigger for a while.

I took a new gun and holster to Front Sight (I'd never even fired the gun or put the holster on a belt) and shot DG. A lot of it is mental focus, at least for me. It was a Sig X-five, so the accuracy part was easy. The mf drills caused me to leave blood on the rear sight. Once I had a band-aid it was actually easier.

I think you could go to front sight, do some dry practice after hours, and shoot DG with the XD. You could also practice the mf drill with the Kimber before you go and likely shoot DG. This might be the easiest way......

Good luck!

[barrym66]

IMHO, I have taken the 4DDHG twice and 2 day once. I take a different gun each time.

After a couple of days at FS, you'll know how to operate whatever gun you've brought well enough to be competent with it. Nothing helps to teach and 'burn in' skills like repetition.

You already know how to operate the Kimber, so why not go again with your XD? I used a Glock for my first class, and when I began shooting a 1911-ish gun for games, I went back to FS using a bone stock CZ75B for the second class. Safety manipulation, etc. became ingrained, and I learned a lot about what it takes to keep it running under stress (note to self: factory mags only! ).

Now I need to grow a pair and go back again with a wheelgun...