Intervening to Save a Life

[rchman]

Don't know if this is the right forum, but this is one of those "what if" questions: at what point can a person intervene if they witness a violent crime? And to what extent?

To illustrate with an example, if a shooting broke out (think Columbine or Virginia), if you had the means, could you legally shoot them?

Or, in a Watts/LA riot type situation, if you saw a person in a position where it is reasonable to believe that they will die, could you intervene with force?

I think part of the answer comes down to does saving a life trump the "rules" that we have to abide by (IMO, yes). On the other end of it, can we legally do so?

[Eljay]

I'm sure people will chime in with details, but if you want a rule of thumb basically if they could shoot the bastard in self defense, you can step into their shoes and do it for them. That includes stopping rape, and arson if you have reason to believe there are people in the structure.

[Ubermcoupe]

IMHO (especially in CA) you may be saved from criminal prosecution, but you could be held responsible for injuring/killing the shooter(s) by the shooter(s) or his/her family.

[Eljay]

IMHO (especially in CA) you may be saved from criminal prosecution, but you could be held responsible for injuring/killing the shooter(s) by the shooter(s) or his/her family.

True even in a regular self defense situation, of course. The twist here is that you could get somebody in court saying "This man saved my life!" or "He shot my baby daddy, who was just kidding around and who would never hurt a fly!"

[smle-man]

Be very careful! Sometimes what you think is happening isn't what is really happening. Many years ago I was driving down a street with my girlfriend (now my wife) and her friend in my 71 Duster. As we were passing a bar a guy came out dragging a girl by the wrist. He pushed her up against the wall and slapper her face twice hard. The girls in my car started yelling at me to do something. So being the manly guy I was back then I stopped the car and pulled out a .30-06 rifle barrel I had sitting under the front seat from a rebarrel job done to an FN mauser. I advanced on the guy and yelled something like 'hey, leave her alone!'. As soon as they saw me the girl locked lips with the guy and gave him a really passionate kiss and then took him by the hand and they went back into the bar. Something kinky was going on there but it could have gone bad if I had wacked the guy to 'save' the girl from being beaten and it turned out they were just playing a game.

Be careful is all I'm saying.

[rchman]

Be very careful! Sometimes what you think is happening isn't what is really happening...

I think that is one of the bigger concerns when presented with that type of situation; accurately judging the situation and the repercussions emotionally and otherwise.

Also, what happens if you witness a literal gang rape (or other type of situation where you are outnumbered)? Obviously, call the cops, but do you just allow it to continue? How would one try to break that up?

When I was 18 in NY, an event that still bothers me to this date was when a bum was verbally harassing a younger woman on the subway and I, nor the 10 other people on the subway jumped in to stop him. Nothing bad happened, but I still will not forgive myself for my inaction.

A lot of people will say that you should do this or that, but when it comes time to step up the plate, it's a different story.

[ubet]

Be very careful! Sometimes what you think is happening isn't what is really happening. Many years ago I was driving down a street with my girlfriend (now my wife) and her friend in my 71 Duster. As we were passing a bar a guy came out dragging a girl by the wrist. He pushed her up against the wall and slapper her face twice hard. The girls in my car started yelling at me to do something. So being the manly guy I was back then I stopped the car and pulled out a .30-06 rifle barrel I had sitting under the front seat from a rebarrel job done to an FN mauser. I advanced on the guy and yelled something like 'hey, leave her alone!'. As soon as they saw me the girl locked lips with the guy and gave him a really passionate kiss and then took him by the hand and they went back into the bar. Something kinky was going on there but it could have gone bad if I had wacked the guy to 'save' the girl from being beaten and it turned out they were just playing a game.

Be careful is all I'm saying.

Ot, was in a bar with the local "princess", her friend, and a friend of mine. I had only one or two ditchs' and this guy comes up and starts talking to princesses' friend. One thing leads to another and he grabs her arm, and forcibly. I leaned over and in no uncertain terms told him he needed to let her go NOW. Well the "princesses" ex fiance, UNBENOUNCE to me, is at me 5oclock, I got in db 1s face and he starts to back off when a bottle breaks behind me and I hear my friend say something. Their was a bottle coming for my head because the princesses 2nd ex fiance, unbenounce to me, was standing at my 5oclock. It ended in a mexican standoff, it was going to be 25 against my friend and I real quickly, wouldnt of ended well.

I guess where I am going with this is, if you get yourself into a situation between a man and a women, you are asking for trouble, no matter if you know whats going on or not, broads are just trouble 99% of the time.

[Oceanbob]

These kind of events and incidents are NEVER like the movies.

(of course, the LA Riots were an exception)

For sure you will be arrested if you kill someone. Locked up while they investigate.

My motto is Keep Moving unless is it painfully obvious this is such an event.

Even in a "Good Shooting" scenario I have often thought it might be prudent to move along down the road. A Good Shooting event can still result in several Civil Actions filed against you by relatives of the Perp. You would be surprised at how expensive it is to defend yourself in Civil Court. Sometimes beyond Bankruptcy.

Out and about I carry only 'Sterile magazines' of ammo. This is Ammo that is CLEAN and WITHOUT FINGERPRINTS. Who wants to get-out-of-the-car and pick up empty cartridge cases after an intersection-shoot-out with a car full of armed-drive-by-gang-members who thought you were an easy pick?

True story.

Let's be responsible and prudent folks.

[drclark]

Personally, I wouldn't shoot unless my or my loved ones life were directly in danger.

There are too many variables as a third party to assess to ensure a good shoot.

[CaliforniaLiberal]

From the DOJ/BOF California Firearms Law 2007 booklet

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

Use of a Firearm or Other Deadly Force in Defense of Life and Body

The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the attempt
to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person in the same or
similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit a forcible and life-
threatening crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the
person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or another
from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are
examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.

[CaliforniaLiberal]

..... Out and about I carry only 'Sterile magazines' of ammo. This is Ammo that is CLEAN and WITHOUT FINGERPRINTS. Who wants to get-out-of-the-car and pick up empty cartridge cases after an intersection-shoot-out with a car full of armed-drive-by-gang-members who thought you were an easy pick?

Let's be responsible and prudent folks.

You're not nearly paranoid enough. Isn't the fact that you have a magazine full of bullets that you might normally expect to have your fingerprints on but don't evidence of intent to use that magazine for nefarious purposes?

"Your honor, the defendant clearly wiped each and every bullet when he loaded his magazine. If this is not evidence of intent to use his gun and leave no trace behind, what is? He's a lousy, stinking criminal and deserves to go to jail for 50 years!"

You've got to think like a District Attorney who's paycheck depends on sending people to prison.

[haole_50]

As I was trained as a Paramedic, we were instructed to ask if they need help. Simple, if they say no, leave and not worry. If they say yes, then it's up to you to decide how it's going to end.

[whipkiller]

These kind of events and incidents are NEVER like the movies.

(of course, the LA Riots were an exception)

For sure you will be arrested if you kill someone. Locked up while they investigate.

My motto is Keep Moving unless is it painfully obvious this is such an event.

Even in a "Good Shooting" scenario I have often thought it might be prudent to move along down the road. A Good Shooting event can still result in several Civil Actions filed against you by relatives of the Perp. You would be surprised at how expensive it is to defend yourself in Civil Court. Sometimes beyond Bankruptcy.

Out and about I carry only 'Sterile magazines' of ammo. This is Ammo that is CLEAN and WITHOUT FINGERPRINTS. Who wants to get-out-of-the-car and pick up empty cartridge cases after an intersection-shoot-out with a car full of armed-drive-by-gang-members who thought you were an easy pick?

True story.

Let's be responsible and prudent folks.

I find it interesting that you carry "Sterile Magazines" of fingerprint-free ammunition, and post about it on an internet forum.

[bombadillo]

You're not nearly paranoid enough. Isn't the fact that you have a magazine full of bullets that you might normally expect to have your fingerprints on but don't evidence of intent to use that magazine for nefarious purposes?

"Your honor, the defendant clearly wiped each and every bullet when he loaded his magazine. If this is not evidence of intent to use his gun and leave no trace behind, what is? He's a lousy, stinking criminal and deserves to go to jail for 50 years!"

You've got to think like a District Attorney who's paycheck depends on sending people to prison.

"Your honor, I tend to shoot quite a bit at the range and often times I take my ammo right out of the box and load them into the magazine with my shooting gloves on, thats why there are no prints on them."

Easy fix.

[CaliforniaLiberal]

"Your honor, I tend to shoot quite a bit at the range and often times I take my ammo right out of the box and load them into the magazine with my shooting gloves on, thats why there are no prints on them."

Easy fix.

I like your idea. Shooting gloves. Saves wear and tear on the fingertips when you get down to the last few in the magazines.