Report on Gun Usage in Israel

[LECTRIKHED]

For those interested, here is my report on gun usage in Israel. Let's please keep this on topic. The IDF girl post that I started got way too serious. This is not a thread intended to be a political or racist debate. I thought it would be nice to post about the guns that I saw and how they use them.

Long Guns:

M1 Carbine - The civilian guard carries these. The are 100% American with the original magazine carriers on the buttstock. There are a lot of these. Surprisingly, the IDF used these as sniper rifles. This does not make much sense to me, but the said that they were accurate and portable.

M16A1 - Entire troop units were carrying these vietnam relics. I guess that they still work well enough.

M16A2 - There were an equal amount of these carried by infantry.

M16 Jungle Carbine - I think this is what it's called. It is basically the M16A1 shorter version.

M4 Carbine - Some regiments, including what looked like Air Force were carrying newer style M4 carbines.

M16 Saw - This is self explanatory. They took a lot M16s, sawed the barrel, and stock to create shorter ones like the M4.

Galil - I only saw one Galil. It was one with a short 10inch barrel. The IDF troops I talked to said that they are no longer using the Galil. They had a favorable view of it, and told me that "you can wash it in sand." I'm guessing that we will start to see more Galil kits hitting the US market.

M24 - Some of them use these as sniper rifles.


Sub Machine Guns

Uzi - I saw a couple of Large size Uzis. These were carried by guards at museums.


Handguns

Glocks - Some people were carrying glock 9mms.

Sig - Some people were carrying sigs.

Hungarian FEG P9s - A lot of security guard had these.



My general impression is as follows. It is not so much the actual gun that is important. It is having it and knowing how to use it. Most of the guns that I saw were very very used. Some guards just tucked the handguns into their belt. The Slings were simple just canvas that was tied using string to the guns. There were no special attachments or multiple points. The troops do not fire their weapons in automatic mode. Instead they shoot multiple times until the target drops.

The IDF troops that I talked to did not know what a 1911 was or M14.

The Israelis use their guns. I would not purchase a used Israeli gun for anything other than historical value. By the age and how worn they look, I can't imagine purchasing one that they has been deemed time to replace. If you did purchase one, it would probably be a good project.

[Socal858]

good post!

[Dump1567]

No Tavor or baby eagle handguns?

[LECTRIKHED]

The Tavor is not yet in circulation. Only one of the guys I spoke to said he had actually shot one. He did seem to have a favorable impression of it. However, I doubt that they will be switching over anytime soon. I did not see any baby eagles. I'm but I'm sure some people have them.

[M. Sage]

M1 Carbine - The civilian guard carries these. The are 100% American with the original magazine carriers on the buttstock. There are a lot of these. Surprisingly, the IDF used these as sniper rifles. This does not make much sense to me, but the said that they were accurate and portable.

Urban sniping: You don't need a high-powered rifle for it. I've seen pics of IDF using silenced 10/22s for sniper duty, too.

I've heard stories from other parts of the world (former Soviet states) where rebels and government forces both use .22s as "sniper" weapons. At under 100 meters, they're just fine - shooting around body armor at that range isn't an issue and they're easy to silence.

[Satex]

M1 Carbine - The civilian guard carries these. Surprisingly, the IDF used these as sniper rifles.

The latter is not correct. Sniper rifles are based on M14 and M24 series rifles.

Galil - I only saw one Galil.

I heard that those were being sold to African and South American nations.

Uzi - I saw a couple of Large size Uzis. These were carried by guards at museums.

Still stocked but not used for any combat activities.

Handguns

IF you can get a license, the local FFL will import anything you want - no resitrictions.

The troops do not fire their weapons in automatic mode. Instead they shoot multiple times until the target drops.

No army trains their soldiers to use full auto in battle. Full auto is used in when clearing a building or in trenches. The rest of the time its semi auto. A trained soldier will switch back and forth very quickly.

[Wulf]

Urban sniping: You don't need a high-powered rifle for it. I've seen pics of IDF using silenced 10/22s for sniper duty, too.

I've heard stories from other parts of the world (former Soviet states) where rebels and government forces both use .22s as "sniper" weapons. At under 100 meters, they're just fine - shooting around body armor at that range isn't an issue and they're easy to silence.

Cooper wrote a article about using the 22lr for urban sniping. IIRC, the gist of it was in a urban riot/protester/jihadi dancing monkey situation you can selectively snipe the instigators and leaders with lethal or non-lethal (likely non-lethal at any rate) fire. There's also very little risk of seriously injuring an untended target with a shoot through or miss. I think the concept has a lot of merit in that kind of "enhanced crowd control" scenario. Plus, 10/22's that will shoot inside of an inch out to 100 yards are cheep and available.

[Fjold]

My general impression is as follows. It is not so much the actual gun that is important. It is having it and knowing how to use it. Most of the guns that I saw were very very used. Some guards just tucked the handguns into their belt. The Slings were simple just canvas that was tied using string to the guns. There were no special attachments or multiple points. .......

That's because they live and work with their firearms, they're not tacticool.

[Scope]

The IDF troops that I talked to did not know what a 1911 was or M14.

Wow. For some reason I find that kind of depressing.

[BillCA]

You obviously didn't ask them about range practice for pistol carrying Israelis. You're limited to purchasing up to 100 rounds per year. Ammo must be bought from a licensed dealer and records are kept to ensure you're not "stocking up".

Legally, handguns carried on your person must be carried hammer down on an empty chamber, safety in the OFF position. The reason for this is that when/if an event occurs and the gun carrier is injured, another Israeli can take his weapon, chamber a round and return fire without having to figure out the safety mechanism or the MOA for that gun.

To many Israelis, our "American Style" carry - Cocked & Locked - is viewed as being "Cowboy" and unnecessary. The needs of Israeli and U.S. citizens are very different. There, they're worried about the sporadic jihadist while here we are more concerned with the street thug.

As for crowd control, I'm surprised they aren't using paint ball guns. Paintballs can be effective when the guns are cranked up to 600 fps. Especially if you freeze the paintballs first.

[LECTRIKHED]

Legally, handguns carried on your person must be carried hammer down on an empty chamber, safety in the OFF position. The reason for this is that when/if an event occurs and the gun carrier is injured, another Israeli can take his weapon, chamber a round and return fire without having to figure out the safety mechanism or the MOA for that gun.

To many Israelis, our "American Style" carry - Cocked & Locked - is viewed as being "Cowboy" and unnecessary. The needs of Israeli and U.S. citizens are very different. There, they're worried about the sporadic jihadist while here we are more concerned with the street thug.

You're right, I forgot to mention how they carry their weapons. Most of the military off duty had either an empty magazine well on their rifle, or they have a plastic magazine insert that goes in the mag well. It has a magazine sticking out sideways. They time them on how long it takes them to load and cock their weapons. If you don't meet the time, you don't get a weapon.

I'm not sure how the security guards kept their handguns. I have heard what you have said about military with handguns. I actually did not see any military with handguns. One of the IDF soldiers that I talked to said that she had never fired a handgun.

I guess it's a good way to prevent accidental fires. To me though the only safety needed is the trigger. I've never seen a trigger pull itself.

[ar_123]

That's an interesting point about handguns. My cousin came out to the US while touring the world after his military stint. I don't neccessarily want to say what he did, but he was highly trained with rifles and yet, when we went to Reed's together, he had never shot a handgun before. Guess they took the old saying to heart - "The only time you use a handgun in a firefight is while you're getting to your rifle".

-K

[1911su16b870]

...Legally, handguns carried on your person must be carried hammer down on an empty chamber, safety in the OFF position. The reason for this is that when/if an event occurs and the gun carrier is injured, another Israeli can take his weapon, chamber a round and return fire without having to figure out the safety mechanism or the MOA for that gun...

Thats why the Masad trains presentation with a racking of the slide prior to pointing in! Thanks BillCA!

[neomentat]

No Galil???? I wonder why these are being retired, I love it's AK reliability and improved accuracy, too bad I'm in CA or I will be getting all variants of this rifle.

[M1A Rifleman]

Interesting know new what an M14 was as we gave them thousands, and they were using them as sniper rifles until very recently if not still.

You must have spoken with either FNG's or REMF's.