The .357sig and why it didn't make it.

[brianinca]

>>>
the guy tested with double Tap 230 grain FMJ as well, and it almost went through the 3rd plate. But considering even 45acp +p don't go over 23000 psi, and 357sigs run up to 40000 psi, we should keep the pressure rating in mind before someone screams foul for comparing +P to "regular" 357sig rounds.
>>>

You've never bought any DoubleTap ammo, nor have you bothered to do any independent research on their product line. If you had, you would know the DT 45 ACP is not +P, and there is no +P for 357 SIG.

Additionally, if the cartridge is within the SAAMI spec pressure zone, who cares what the chamber pressure spec is? According to your logic, the 454 Casull with its 65K PSI rating must be inferior to the 1873 45 Colt and the 14K PSI Colt. Pull your head out.

I switched from carrying Hornady XTP's in 45 ACP +P and 357 SIG to the DT GDHP equivalents for exactly the reason stated by locosway - the GDHP's are a more balanced towards expansion. In 45 ACP, DT's standard pressure (21K) 230 gr loads are running a bit faster than Hornady's +P loads, due to DT's extensive fiddling with powder variations. Likewise, their 357 SIG loads are a LOT hotter than the hot Hornady in the 115, 125 and 147 gr loads. I tried them all, and went with the 125 gr for my G33.

Incidentally, Speer has a VERY different bullet design for the 230 gr GDHP compared to the 125 gr 357 SIG - the SIG is virtually identical to the 125 gr 357 Mag bullet. Both the 45 ACP and the 357 Magnum have a great track record. The 357 SIG emulates the standard LEO 357 Mag load in an auto pistol. How is that not a good thing?

The XTP's are a GREAT design that is tuned to penetrate as a primary design critera. I have almost 1K of the 200 and 230 gr XTP's hand loaded for carry around the ranch, since bigger critters need deeper holes (and they were on sale for awhile at Midway).

357 Magnum penetrates better than 45 ACP - and they've been trying since at least the early 70's to get better penetration from 45 by going the wrong direction with lighter bullets and high velocities. I popped an expired fire extinguisher with a 230 gr GDHP and was pleased as can be at the PERFECT flower petal expansion I got from the bullet. That doesn't mean that I'd expect it to go through three fire extinguishers - it is what it is.

Your axe is disappearing as you continue to grind it.

Regards,
Brian in CA

[misterjake]

So, just to be sure, .357 SIG has better barrier penetration than .45ACP yet wound trama is almost exact at double the chamber pressure?

Don't get me wrong, the .357sig performs...but at what cost?

Looking at would ballistics...I really don't see the benefit for more muzzle flip.

[misterjake]

Here is a great link about defensive ammunition.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.357SIG

(All you "+P junkies" - note how little difference there is between the high-velocity .357SIG and other "slow-poke" rounds. The temporary cavity size is also virtually identical.)


Velocity seems to be the "holy grail" for a lot of folks when they decide to choose their handgun ammo, and they tend to gravitate towards +P or even +P+ loads. As mentioned above, velocity is not always good or useful. This is something to keep in mind when deciding between a "fast" 127gr +P+ or 147gr load in 9mm for example. Another factor is the ability to control the follow-up shot. If you have two loads which both perform about the same, you might consider going to the slow/heavy bullet due to the fact that the slower load is more easily controlled. Consider the data from Winchester in regards to their 9mm 127gr +P+ load (1250 fps) versus the 147gr load (990 fps) in the Ranger-T line:






.63" SIG < .74" ACP

.45 will leave a larger hole.

[stitchnicklas]

or if you really want to be nutso with damage test,take a 357sig hp fill with liquid mercury hard wax tip and test impact results....i heard it is ..interesting .

[misterjake]

or if you really want to be nutso with damage test,take a 357sig hp fill with liquid mercury hard wax tip and test impact results....i heard it is ..interesting .

How so? Wouldn't a .45 do more damage filled with mercury and capped with wax?

.45 has a larger fill capacity than a .357sig.

[CalNRA]

You've never bought any DoubleTap ammo, nor have you bothered to do any independent research on their product line.

LOL. That's a hilarious assumption.

If you had, you would know the DT 45 ACP is not +P,

whether or not DT ammo is +p is a controversial topic that many shooting sports people don't agree on. I mentioned it as a pre-caustion in case the "+P cheating" censors showed up again.

and there is no +P for 357 SIG

where did I say that? I listed 40000 psi as ceiling for 357sig, no more, no less.

Additionally, if the cartridge is within the SAAMI spec pressure zone, who cares what the chamber pressure spec is? According to your logic, the 454 Casull with its 65K PSI rating must be inferior to the 1873 45 Colt and the 14K PSI Colt. Pull your head out.

interestingly I'm not that one that brought up the whole +P topic:

special round for the 9mm as it is a p+ which signifies higher pressure round while the 357 sig is standard pressure.so if you want a cherry pick the 9mm loses still even with cheating(p+)

did you forget the (P+)?????that matters.....

---------------------------

Incidentally, Speer has a VERY different bullet design for the 230 gr GDHP compared to the 125 gr 357 SIG - the SIG is virtually identical to the 125 gr 357 Mag bullet. Both the 45 ACP and the 357 Magnum have a great track record. The 357 SIG emulates the standard LEO 357 Mag load in an auto pistol. How is that not a good thing?

I made a point of saying the 357 sig has its merits, multiple times, if you bothered to read through this thread. If you haven't done so, please do that now, thanks.

Your axe is disappearing as you continue to grind it.

It's funny because I have state many things which are in line with that you are arguing for, if you bothered to read my posts in this thread.

[stitchnicklas]

How so? Wouldn't a .45 do more damage filled with mercury and capped with wax?

.45 has a larger fill capacity than a .357sig.

i was joking...any mix of merc and bullet would land someone in hotwater in many points.

bullet erosion
cancer
toxic shock
law enforcement
etc...

but i heard the combo is interesting to say the least...

[CalNRA]

and i think calnra is having relations with Sotomayor and Kagan ..

oh good, when you can't spell, perform simple subtraction or number comparisons, use sex jokes. You are such a great representative of crane operators everywhere.

[misterjake]

i was joking...any mix of merc and bullet would land someone in hotwater in many points.

bullet erosion
cancer
toxic shock
law enforcement
etc...

but i heard the combo is interesting to say the least...

T'is would be bad.

[Turbinator]

I still like the peace of mind I get from knowing that with .357sig loaded up, I am good to take that surgical shot, out to 30 yards, under stress.

I hope for your liability's sake you aren't taking defensive shots out at 30 yards here in CA.

Turby

[CalNRA]

and you dear sir need to remove the obstruction from your funny bone as it is making you a complete bore............
.
.
.
.
go to the range and shoot you weapons until your funny bone is healed.

I did. You need to get over your obsession with my funny bone, and learn to make a coherent argument. I guess you don't need that kind of skills being a "professional crane operator", just like "grammer".

my math in my "professional " world is top notch level.

i am a crane operator which = my math must be dead on everytime or shtf...
my computer skills are top grade when reprogramming a crane onboard computer system.

so my grammer can go the way of the dodo

[stitchnicklas]

and ignore button is hit

[CalNRA]

and ignore button is hit

Don't worry, the rest of the world will see your brilliant posts forever, master crane operator.

[Boberama]

I used to be highly interested in "stopping power". Now I don't really care.

Bottom line is, the .357 SIG has a very good rep, good penetration of barriers AND does not have problems with overpenetration.

It's a good round. But I like .45 better.

Now stop arguing and get out to the range.

[Gryff]

I think most people are shooting with blinders on so to speak. So and so told them, or all knowing sales guy at their LGS told them .45acp is the end all be all, or .40s&w is the best all around pistol cartridge, or hey 9mm is the most cost efficient to shoot. Which may very well be the case but that's where it ends for a lot of shooters. That's what they get convinced of and it's sometimes impossible to get them to open their eyes to other options. I had a conversation the other day with a coworker that was dead set that the .45acp is the holy Grail. " but can the xyz shoot through a car window? I've personally done it with my .45". Me: well actually........

So to my point if more people lose the blinders and have an open mind the price would absolutely come down. Might take a while but, the more main stream it is the cheaper it will be hence 9mm low cost.

Well if the blinders are coming off, let's get the .45 GAP in here.