Lower Receiver-Pistol or Rifle

[thehummerguy]

Doing a transfer today with another CalGunner on an M4 Carbine...I brought in Rifle complete, Buyer wanted to take Upper Home and Leave lower....The Store Owner stated he would have to register the Lower as a Pistol if he took upper...I Thought this strange as he can see the entire Rifle prior to transfer.
He then added that ALL Lower Receivers he sells stripped are sold as
"Frames" and registred as Pistols...Is this right?
When I was a dealer I sold all my lower receivers as Rifles unless they were marked as "Pistol" on the actual Lower.


Please advise

[CHS]

That dealer is so wrong it's not even funny. Could even get him into some seriously hot federal waters with the ATF if he's selling rifles as pistols.

Also, you're wrong in thinking that the "pistol" markings actually mean anything.

[thehummerguy]

That dealer is so wrong it's not even funny. Could even get him into some seriously hot federal waters with the ATF if he's selling rifles as pistols.

Also, you're wrong in thinking that the "pistol" markings actually mean anything.

Well, Define wrong...I know the way he is doing his Lowers is Wrong, But if a receiver is marked "Pistol" then I would error on the side of caution.
I have been through many ATF audits and they pick crap that would astonish most folks....

Do you have any current Regs on the correct procedures?

[CHS]

Well, Define wrong...I know the way he is doing his Lowers is Wrong, But if a receiver is marked "Pistol" then I would error on the side of caution.
I have been through many ATF audits and they pick crap that would astonish most folks....

A receiver is a receiver. It doesn't matter what it says on it. It's still a receiver.

A pistol frame is not a "pistol", it's also just a receiver.

Also, you can't just transfer receivers and frames to people in CA as pistols unless they are on the safe handgun list, or the purchaser is exempt as in a LEO.

[thehummerguy]

Yea...I am going to differ here on this.

A private party transfer is Exempt from the Safe Pistol List...This only applies if it comes from a dealer.

A frame is NOT a Frame...Perhaps you were never a dealer?

If I sold a Pistol Frame and was serial numbered, You DROS'd it as a Pistol....

AR Lowers were done as Rifles....

This is why I asked if you had Current Regs....I will call DOJ and ask...Even then that is no guarantee.

On the Federal 4473 Side of the house you have Question 18:Type of Firearm to be transferred:

Handgun, Long Gun "Rifle or Shotgun, and Other Firearm "Frame,Receiver,Etc. See Instructions for Question 18"

Here is a Link:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

[wildhawker]

If someone takes a complete rifle and converts it into a "pistol" without a Form 1 stamp, he broke the law. Period.

If this takes place in California, they also violated California law. And if it were a dealer that was not properly licensed for such, they would have violated other related laws.

There's a trend here...

ETA: PM me the dealer, someone needs to reach out to this FFL before ATF takes them behind the woodshed.

[thehummerguy]

Lets not get off track here....The question is still, Does an AR Lower receiver get DROS'd as a Rifle or Pistol? We know the answer is Rifle on the state side and "Frame/Receiver" on the 4473.

In Our case we had a COMPLETE M4 Series Calif Compliant Rifle, The Buyer just wanted to take the UPPER Home and leave the Lower for the 10day wait.
This triggered the Response from Dealer that would make it a Pistol....Dumb, I know.

Now...He did ours as a Rifle on the DROS and 4473, So no issues here.

In his Gun case is an AR Pistol....CLearly it will be registred as a Pistol...correct?

But what if a Buyer buys Just a LOWER and Builds it into a Pistol?
Clearly laws are broken...is it up to the Buyer to advise the Dealer up front he will make this Lower into a Pistol and register right then as such?


The statement that he Registers all his Lowers as Pistols is just Plain stupid...I will need to have a conversation with this owner upon my return.
I beleive that once I actually tell him that the poor soul who puts the receiver together as a rifle but is Registred as a Pistol, that the Poor SOB
now has some unknowingly severe legal issues to possibly contend with.
I have no plans on turning anyone in for anything, it is his Job to understand his Business. I Guarantee you that if you go to 10 different gun shops you get 10 different answers on state and federal Laws.I know this just from the last couple months traveling about the Bay Area
Buying and trading Gun for my collection. IMHO this is just flat out due to the vagueness in the Laws passed by the Morons in Sac Town.

[CHS]

Yea...I am going to differ here on this.

A private party transfer is Exempt from the Safe Pistol List...This only applies if it comes from a dealer.

Even so, you can't just DROS a frame as a pistol if it has "pistol" written on it. That marking doesn't mean anything whatsoever in the context of the law.

A frame is NOT a Frame...Perhaps you were never a dealer?

In what case is a frame not a frame, besides if it's been built into a gun already?

I have worked at a dealer on the side of regulatory compliance long enough that while I'm not a dealer myself, I consider myself close enough. Do you have a letter from the ATF tech branch? I do.

If I sold a Pistol Frame and was serial numbered, You DROS'd it as a Pistol....

No. You wouldn't. Not unless you sold it to a roster-exempt individual. Even if it said "pistol" on the side, unless it was built into a pistol in a roster-exempt form, or unless you were selling it to a LEO, you would have to DROS it as a "long gun".

AR Lowers were done as Rifles....

AR lowers should not have been done as "rifles". They would have been DROS'ed as "Long guns", which includes rifles and shotguns but only because CA law has not fixed the DROS system to reflect firearms which are neither long guns nor pistols. On the 4473 AR Lowers should NEVER be described as rifles, because they aren't. They are "other".

This is why I asked if you had Current Regs....I will call DOJ and ask...Even then that is no guarantee.

On the Federal 4473 Side of the house you have Question 18:Type of Firearm to be transferred:

Handgun, Long Gun "Rifle or Shotgun, and Other Firearm "Frame,Receiver,Etc. See Instructions for Question 18"

Right. A frame is a frame. It's not a handgun, long gun, rifle or shotgun.

It is a rifle if it was at some point built into a rifle at some point, only because federal law defines a rifle as any firearm made FROM a rifle.

So you could buy an AR receiver/frame, build it into a rifle, and then strip it down and sell it to an 18yo because it's no longer a frame. It's now a rifle.

[ke6guj]

Yea...I am going to differ here on this.

A private party transfer is Exempt from the Safe Pistol List...This only applies if it comes from a dealer.

right, but a dealer can't watch a rifle come into the store, have the upper removed, and then think he can DROS/4473 it as a pistol. He KNOWS that it was a rifle, and because it was a rifle, it can't be a pistol

A frame is NOT a Frame...Perhaps you were never a dealer?

huh, a frame isn't a frame, and yes, bdsmchs did work at an FFL for a couple years.

If I sold a Pistol Frame and was serial numbered, You DROS'd it as a Pistol....

AR Lowers were done as Rifles....

my question would be, you said you used to be a dealer, when was that, and was it in CA? Current CA law prohibits you from selling an off-roster pistol, and a stripped pistol receiver can't be on the roster, so you can't DROS it as a pistol.

This is why I asked if you had Current Regs....I will call DOJ and ask...Even then that is no guarantee.

On the Federal 4473 Side of the house you have Question 18:Type of Firearm to be transferred:

Handgun, Long Gun "Rifle or Shotgun, and Other Firearm "Frame,Receiver,Etc. See Instructions for Question 18"

Here is a Link:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

we are aware of how the current 4473 is worded and that a stripped reciever would normally be 4473'd as an "other". the problem becomes "what if it was previously a "long gun", does it get 4473'd as an "other" the second time if the upper is removed from the lower before it gets turned into the dealer?

[wildhawker]

These are not just state issues, but Federal ones as well. If you'll allow us to gently reach out to them and attempt to inform on the various legal matters implicated by the OP, everyone will be better for it. He could be getting himself and his customers in significantly hot water. Allowing it to continue only exposes more people to potentially felony-class circumstances.

-Brandon

Lets not get off track here....The question is still, Does an AR Lower receiver get DROS'd as a Rifle or Pistol? We know the answer is Rifle on the state side and "Frame/Receiver" on the 4473.

In Our case we had a COMPLETE M4 Series Calif Compliant Rifle, The Buyer just wanted to take the UPPER Home and leave the Lower for the 10day wait.
This triggered the Response from Dealer that would make it a Pistol....Dumb, I know.

Now...He did ours as a Rifle on the DROS and 4473, So no issues here.

In his Gun case is an AR Pistol....CLearly it will be registred as a Pistol...correct?

But what if a Buyer buys Just a LOWER and Builds it into a Pistol?
Clearly laws are broken...is it up to the Buyer to advise the Dealer up front he will make this Lower into a Pistol and register right then as such?


The statement that he Registers all his Lowers as Pistols is just Plain stupid...I will need to have a conversation with this owner upon my return.
I beleive that once I actually tell him that the poor soul who puts the receiver together as a rifle but is Registred as a Pistol, that the Poor SOB
now has some unknowingly severe legal issues to possibly contend with.
I have no plans on turning anyone in for anything, it is his Job to understand his Business. I Guarantee you that if you go to 10 different gun shops you get 10 different answers on state and federal Laws.I know this just from the last couple months traveling about the Bay Area
Buying and trading Gun for my collection. IMHO this is just flat out due to the vagueness in the Laws passed by the Morons in Sac Town.