Protecting your Property

[j1133s]

If you are investigating a possible threat on your property is it legal to have your firearm in hand? I've read threads stating if you have a handgun it should be holstered, but most occurances take place late at night when in your PJ's. What if you defend your home with a rifle? Don't read to far into the question, I am fully aware you must be in immediate danger or in a life threatening situation to engage a trespasser with deadly force. Just wondering what the state considers legal and within your rights as far as checking a possible threat with a firearm on your person and on your property?

If you feel that your life may be in gone in the next second, do you want to read up on the law or grab a gun and try to live?

I notice that a lot of new gun people seem to have a "show off" type of attitude where they think presenting/holding the gun is cool or something. Thing is, if you hold a gun and don't know how to use it well, then it may be worse then not having it. Also, avoidance is way better than confrontation, and no material/thing is worth risking your life over (since you are thinking about facing the intruder w/ a gun, I can only assume life-death situation can occur).

[Mad Jax]

Presenting a firearms use to deture a potential criminal showing you ment business, that you monitor your property, were aware something was wrong that you are armed and willing to protect and prevent crime. Like I stated before in the good ole days, and that was that. Here & now criminals are much more ruthless, have rights that protect them, and run in pac's with groupies( usually younger kids thinking what the leader is doing is cool). I am a resonsible & skilled marksman, I too believe there are alot of people with a show off attitude. I believe there is very little I have that is worth their lives, my family being the exception. When I do believe there is a dangerous event brewing, my reaction is arm myself tell the wife to call 911 keep the kids inside lock the door's then go investigate. Thats what got me thinking, upon investigating & its not a life threatening situation I am now on my property armed with a non life threatening criminal...what to do now that is within legal boundaries. I'm not the type who can just sit, watch & wait I'm not proclaiming a am itchy trigger fingered gun totting vigalante or a wanna be LEO whose watched to many movies. I am a veteran with morals & values and believe me when I say I know the value of human life.

[MontClaire]

There are other methods you can use to show you mean business protecting your property. Outside halogen lights that cover your territory, video cameras, loud speaker where you announce that police are on they way, other things I can't think of right now but Im sure security experts may help you with. Spend some money on this and you'll be better off defending yourself in court and 2nd mortgaging your house to pay it. Presenting a firearm should be the last thing on the list if the possibility if you being harmed is present and clear.

[Mad Jax]

There are other methods you can use to show you mean business protecting your property. Outside halogen lights that cover your territory, video cameras, loud speaker where you announce that police are on they way, other things I can't think of right now but Im sure security experts may help you with. Spend some money on this and you'll be better off defending yourself in court and 2nd mortgaging your house to pay it. Presenting a firearm should be the last thing on the list if the possibility if you being harmed is present and clear.

what? Why should an American have to do all that and spend so much money for? Security expert? I believe I will duck out now before this starts to go south. Thank you for your posts most of which were very helpful...

[johnthomas]

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf3

[GuyW]

The biggest threat to your property is the government...
.

[mif_slim]

We don't have Castle rule here in CA do we??

[Cokebottle]

We don't have Castle rule here in CA do we??

California's Castle Doctrine is actually pretty good.

We have no duty to retreat from our domicile.
If there are signs of forcible entry, it is assumed that the intruder is there to cause great bodily harm.

Forcible entry is not a "get out of jail free" card, you still must be able to articulate that you were in fear for your life or the life of another in the home, but the bar is much lower than it would be for an encounter on the street, where retreat would be the most favored option.


Someone snooping around outside the home? Don't shoot until they actually enter and pose a threat.

[MontClaire]

It seems to me at least that you're trying to see if you can get away with brandishing your firearm. Keep in mind that there are people out there who don't care if you point at them. People in this country are not afraid of guns. We are all used to em by one level or another. Last thing to remember is that there are also people who know exactly how many seconds you need to bring it up aim and fire. Sometimes, once in a blue moon you meet that person who teaches you a lesson for brandishing your gun. Unfortunately for brandisher it's usually too late. Good luck!

[johnthomas]

We don't have Castle rule here in CA do we??

I know my previous post is a long read, but it will answer most of your home protection questions. Also if you follow the link to the handbook, you will get questions answered that you may have wondered about in the past.

[Lucky Scott]

The OP was about having a gun in your hand outside the house. I have found it is always better to have it out of sight. A pair of jeans with a handgun in the back pocket is always better than in your hand. I would never walk outside the house with a gun in my hand. A rifle or a shotgun may not be a good idea.

[Hopalong]

Personally, I'm taking Alex's advice whether I'm outside or inside the house.

I would not use deadly force unless I feared for my life, in the true sense of the phrase.

I'm not arguing to a jury "I'm protected by 198.5", I'm arguing, "I was attacked with a (gun, knife, hammer, bat) and feared for my life."

I'm retreating if I can (although the law says you don't have to)

I'm not taking a gun and go looking for bad guys, that's what the phone and LEOS are for.

198.5 is a law. It is open to interpretation. Legal experts( Judges) don't always agree, lawyers don't always agree, and certainly CALIFORNIA jurors don't always agree.

The DA is a political animal, and any civil suit is a crapshoot. You lose, even if you win.

As Alex said, there is nothing in your house that comes close to the cost of attorney's fees (even if you win)

I think 198.5, or any self defense issue involving a gun, would play out better in Arizona or Texas. You gotta love Joe Horn, and you gotta believe that if he lived in California, he'd be in jail now instead of being a folk hero.

The whole thing is a gamble, and everyone gets to play their own hand.

[Mad Jax]

The big picture was to see if you can legally have a firearm on your person, whether it be handgun, rifle or shotgun, to investigate a possible crime or disturbance of a great nature taking place on your property without voilating the Ca. Laws. Using brightlights, a PA system or electronic devices to watch and wait hoping the PD arrives in time to catch the perp sounds like a good gamble for a criminal. " I saw a light come on so I know I got at least 2 minutes to do whatever, then I'm home again for tomorrows crime". The use of deadly force is crystal clear, but is it illegal to have your weapon on you? Or do you run outside then run back in saying yep he's armed and going to hurrt me. No property is not worth taking a Life so to speak ( try explaining that to those in Isreal) The word BRANDISHING has so many different catergories in the meaning. If its in your hand its brandishing no matter how responsible you are? I would not be asking this if I was sort of yahoo that had no respect for the law. Alex & John thank you for your inputs you were especially helpfull...Merry Christmas to ALL, be safe & keep fighting the Good Fight

[Rocket Man]

Don't take this the wrong way, since we are all adults, and will do whatever makes us comfortable. Despite some legal exemptions to carrying a loaded firearm while affecting an arrest, or for personal protection it's still very murky water. My advice would be, that if there is a threat to your property, you call 911 while arming yourself, and stay in a defensible position inside your house. You are afforded some protection while inside your home, as someone breaking and entering is presumed to be there to harm you. No such protection exists when you step outside your home.

If you have something worth stealing, it should be insured. The cost of your deductible would be much less than lawyer fees defending yourself from possible criminal or civil suits. If it's a big enough bump in the night to warrant checking with a firearm, its probably wiser to stay inside and wait for the bump to come to you. I hate thieves as much as the next guy, but the reality is that nothing I own is worth dying or killing over. If it's possible to alert the thief to your awareness of his actions from inside your home, do it. He may run away, he may try and come after you, but at least you are inside, where you are on more stable legal ground.

I have yet to go to a call where a thief trying to steal a car, a stereo, a bike, etc has broken into the home when confronted by the homeowner to attack. Most of the time they run off upon being discovered. I've been to a few calls where the property owner or a neighbor was holding the thief at gunpoint. In those cases the thief was never armed, and if a scuffle ensued, the good-guy would have been between a rock and a hardplace. Shoot the unarmed thief, or try to fistfight a guy while retaining a gun.

The remaining issue is identifying yourself as the good guy if LEOs are responding. We may have gotten a call from your neighbor, and have no idea you are on your own property. You may not know we are there, or enroute. If you do catch the guy, even if we are aware you are holding the guy at gunpoint before we get there, we will certainly have our guns out, and pointed at or around you. Off duty LEOs run the same risk when drawing in plain clothes. All bets are off when uniformed LEOs see someone in plain clothes pointing a gun at someone else. You will at the minimum be ordered to drop the gun. Now there is an unsecured gun that may or may not be within leap and reach of the badguy. It may end well, it may not.

All this drama, and the thief will most likely end up with a misdemeanor charge for attempting to steal whatever it was that caught his eye. My cautionary tale ends with it is almost never a good idea to go outside with a gun to stop a property crime, no matter how legal it may be.

Good post Alex00, thanks.

[acaligunner]

I don't know what exactly the law says in regards to you're question, but If I saw some intruder outside, I would secure my family & then call the police. I do not want to give away my position by searching for an intruder either inside or outside my house. Let them come to you, no need to wander unless you need to secure a family member.

Secure everyone, make sure you have protection, stay behind cover, and call the police. If I'm outside I carry concealed. If someone attacks me within my property, I have what I need to protect myself.

Here's something you may find interesting, a stupid neighbor came to my front door, wanting to fight me. He beat on the door, etc. I told him to leave. When he became even more violent, I took out my protection. He then ran to his house and called the LAPD on me. I was already phoning.

When the LAPD arrived at his house and spoke to him to keep off my property, they arrived at my front door, I told them what had happened, and that I wanted him arrested for traspassing, the LAPD told me he was not traspassing, and for me to drop any idea of getting this idiot arrest.

Be careful about the laws here in CA, I would hardly feel safe shooting someone in my bedroom, least so outside my house.

acaligunner