My CCW class LOL

[KenpoProfessor]

Last weekend I took the class for my CCW here in AZ, and what passes is very sad indeed. Some of these people should not handle guns until they've at least been on the range a bit, they actually scared me. One was a 3rd grade teacher who had never handled a gun before, and she was borrowing one from the instructor for qualification. She actually did pretty well shooting (I was right next to her in the FL) but she wasn't familiar with any weapon, and I kept my eye on at least 5 of the 12 people there.

The main guy I was watching (for my safety alone, much less any one else's LOL) was a European guy. He actually loaded his glock magazine backwards. That's right, he loaded the top two normally and they went bang, and the next 10 were stacked backwards, and we found out when he had an FTF and the instructor was clearing the weapon. I laughed out loud and wished I had a video camera to film the hilarity. Sad thing was, he actually qualified, mind you, I think it's just a cursory shooting thing and all the state really wants is your money and for you to pass the written test on the law.

My apt. manager at my old place in the PRK told me about people like this, and to be honest, it was hard to accept the fact that even though people have guns, they're not always trained to use them. She really got me thinking about that statement when we discussed CCW issues in CA. She said she didn't agree with people having a CCW until they qualified with the weapon. After this incident, I'm beginning to rethink my thoughts on everyone having a right to buy a firearm without any training whatsoever, especially when the guy next to you is almost sweeping you with his finger on the trigger on a hot range.

What do you think, should you have a range card that says you've been taught to use a firearm safely before you can buy?

I know this sounds like nannyism but after this incident, I think it's a very wise idea that people get trained in the use of their firearms before they buy one, rifle or handgun. I won't like being on the end of a ND because of idiots like this.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[Scarecrow Repair]

You may or may not remember my "shooter's license" tread of some time back. It was poorly worded and more of a brain dump of an idea in progress than anything well thought out, but my main train of thought was that if guns were as commonly seen as cars, maybe so many people wouldn't be freaked out by them, and one way to do that would be to have a shooter's license enabling you to open carry in public, just like a driver's license allows you to drive in public. Nothing to do with owning a gun or shooting on private land, etc. Just a means of showing you have passed some minimal test on gun safety and aren't likely to load a magazine backwards. Even issue tickets for infractions like carrying with the safety off and a round chambered. You know, similar to broken headlights on a car. No, no polluting tickets for black powderguns :-)

It would be nice to have some kind of identification showing you know something minimal about guns, allowing you to bypass the 10 day wait among other things. Maybe in an enlightened nanny state, it would also allow you to ignore the safe handgun list, the idiotic assault weapons evil features ban, standard mag ban, etc. But an enlightened nanny state is an oxymoron in the first place.

[Wulf]

I agree scarecrow, problem is the anti's would just see it as another step towards registration and ban. It would be great if there were a completely positive system of gun owner training, and government recognition and reward of that achievement. Its a pipe dream though, when you cant even get the anti's in the legislature to recognize that the 10-day cooling off period is absolutely pointless for people who already own guns and CCW holders in particular.

[Scarecrow Repair]

Oh no not again!

I am NOT advocating a shooter's license again! :-) I was just agreeing with the sentiment that some people should no more have access to guns, for their own safety, than some people should have access to cars.

It is kind of funny how the antis have made guns so awfully evil in so many minds that an intelligent system to keep guns from the incompetents is just not possible. They would rather fight a simple non-existent problem (guns are evil) rather than the harder real problem (people can be evil or even just incompetent). By focusing on an unworkable solution (banning guns) to a non-problem, they prevent the real problem (people do bad things and not just with guns) from being solved.

[River Jack]

I tend to agree. One needs a license to drive a car because car can be lethal especially when being operated by inexperienced drivers. Imagine if just anyone could legally get beind the wheel and drive freely without having had some training. Guns are the same. I'm not for the whole registration thing, but I feel that new gun buyers should at least be required to learn the basics about safety, handling, operation, and firing.

[Greg-Dawg]

Thanks for sharing.

Some folks outside of CA take their gun laws for granted. We get bashed all the time and come up with excuses like, "I'M MOVING OUT OF CALI!!!"

I mean, here in CA we know that CCWs are difficult to come by so we have other means to preoccupy us: Self-defense training, endless times at the range, self-building ARs, etc. to hone in our "gun skills" or to pass the time and wait for a new Sheriff/council member to be pro-CCW.

If I were to move to OR, VT, AZ, TX, etc. to apply for a CCW, I know I'd feel a bit more freedom and proficient on my firearms...but most likely be in the same position as you watching a new kid on the block easily get a CCW but know nothing about handling a gun. Therefore, the folks who already live in a "free state" are to be a bit spoiled.

It's scray to read in the news about a CCW citizen shoot a BG, but end up with a manslaughter rap because of lack of control/focus/proficiency. To them CCWs are given away like ice cream.

[berg]

I saw the same thing at a class here in Nor Cal. A guy who clearly had no experience with his firearm (Ruger semi of some sort). He loaded the bullets in backwards. I saw him do this and told him they "go in the other way"

I think we've all seen people at the range we wished were not armed. These people can make it harder on all of us when they screw up with their gun. It can tarnish the image of the gun owner.

[mth]

An easy way to get around education being used as registration/licensing would simply be to educate everyone. It's a pipe dream, but I would like to see a short section on firearms education as part of the public school curriculum.

I can already anticipate the "You're training kids to kill!" nonsense, but it's an easily defeated argument -- no more than sex ed. teaches kids to have sex, or drug ed. teaches kids to become crackheads.

There would be a great advantage even to people who have no interest in owning a gun. People would probably object less if it were part of a "self defense" series and also covered the weak points of guns, how to attempt to disarm a shooter if you have no other choice, as well as other methods of self defense; situational awareness and martial arts, etc.

Isn't it something every citizen should at least know about?

[leelaw]

What do you think, should you have a range card that says you've been taught to use a firearm safely before you can buy?

LOL! You can take the Clyde out of California, but you can't take the California out of Clyde!

[leelaw]

I agree scarecrow, problem is the anti's would just see it as another step towards registration and ban. It would be great if there were a completely positive system of gun owner training, and government recognition and reward of that achievement. Its a pipe dream though, when you cant even get the anti's in the legislature to recognize that the 10-day cooling off period is absolutely pointless for people who already own guns and CCW holders in particular.

You want to compare a Constitutional right with a convenient privilege?

[12gaugederringer]

First of all one has to ask can we do better? Can we prevent negligent and criminal use of firearms without infringing on our rights? I think most of us would answer yes, with education and application of current law to prevent ownership by criminals we can. If this is so a license to purchase and carry a firearm would make sense for the same reason cited before (you need one to drive a car, hunt, operate a radio station). Purchases should not be maintained in any sort of database, but a license would be required for purchase and carry. We always talk about the importance of gun safety, let's put our money where our mouth is and take the initiative on legitimizing firearms in a society that has forgotten what they are for. The denial of such a license must be constitutional and extremely limited in scope, but it's a dialogue that gun advocates and gun haters have not had.

[KenpoProfessor]

LOL! You can take the Clyde out of California, but you can't take the California out of Clyde!

I think it's because I've been around people that have respect for what a firearm is capable of and never took it for granted. Here, like what was said above, people take this freedom very lightly and are a bit spoiled, and I don't want to get shot by the complete nooob at the range because he had no business with a gun. I used to think the safe firearm handling thing to buy a gun in the PRK was strange and silly until this incident, now I have to rethink that .

I don't know, something that says you've handled and discharged your firearm in a safe and proficient manner, and you're not a danger to others. I suppose if they get rid of the gun laws with Parker there's going to be a lot more stupid PRKrs with this stupidity syndrome, especially if they make NFA items legal. As much as I abhor gun laws, I guess I just haven't seen enough dweebs with guns to even think this way until now.

BTW, I OCd in Costco and Walmart today, no signs of NO FIREARMS at either so I just walked right in and did my shopping and nobody said a word or looked wierd at me

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[KenpoProfessor]

First of all one has to ask can we do better? Can we prevent negligent and criminal use of firearms without infringing on our rights? I think most of us would answer yes, with education and application of current law to prevent ownership by criminals we can. If this is so a license to purchase and carry a firearm would make sense for the same reason cited before (you need one to drive a car, hunt, operate a radio station). Purchases should not be maintained in any sort of database, but a license would be required for purchase and carry. We always talk about the importance of gun safety, let's put our money where our mouth is and take the initiative on legitimizing firearms in a society that has forgotten what they are for. The denial of such a license must be constitutional and extremely limited in scope, but it's a dialogue that gun advocates and gun haters have not had.

Well said and I agree. I think this may be the next step, and we might even get the Brady's on our side if we initiate this action ourselves as gun owners. We put a safe handling and firing law with a certificate so you may purchase a firearm and they get all the stupid stuff like the 10 day wait, off the books and go to Shall Issue for CCW.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[Scarecrow Repair]

Or instead of a shooter's license ...

Instead of carrying around a paper which can be forged and which allows the government to track who almost certainly has guns, you could require every purchase to include a safety check. I think it would be hard to control; who administers the test, and how do you certify them? How do you even enforce requiring the test before purchase? But it would be nice to get away from the licensing bureaucracy altogether.

Too bad guns are so simple and so cheap; people would buy a gun and open carry just to show off, but I can't imagine anyone buying a car just to park it in their driveway without knowing how to use it. Plus, a car requires more skill to be useful: you have to know how to park, reverse, and especially follow traffic laws.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

With all of those poorly trained knuckleheads in Arizona toting around guns that they don't know how to handle, I'll bet the accidental firearms death rate has skyrocketed in that State.

Or maybe guns are really safer than you've been lead to believe.