Using hand loads in a self defence shooting.

[xrMike]

As stated previously, find out what your local PD or SO uses, and then use that... How can you be vilified then?

[magsnubby]

The case in that link is rather unique and bizarre. I think the odds of it being replicated by one of us are pretty slim.

Wanna bet your freedom on "pretty slim"?

I have seen plenty of reloaded ammunition in murder cases. I have never seen a reload/handload becoming an issue at a court in my career.

Are you talking self defense shootings or shootings involving some type of crime?

[Neuvik]

It depends on the situation. If I just happen to grab my 8mm that has my reloads to bad so sad. I save a nice little fortune reloading those and not paying retail.

My AR is mix match with the mags, some are factory ammo, some are reloads, luck of the draw I guess. I'm certainly not going to check to make sure in a defensive situation.

The AK is really the only thing I just buy factory ammo for...I guess the bad guy can be happy knowing he got russias finest second rate ammo flung at him.

I really don't feel a need to make sure I have factory ammo in my firearms. Its my duty not to conform to the liberal society especially when it comes to my own defense; they have no business deciding how I got about. I'm going to do what is effective and economical for me. If for some reason I am forced to grab my bow I'm not going to worry about the arrows I fletched and custom tips I got. I'm just going to nock it and let fly when the oppertunity requires it.

[supersonic]

NEVER (knowingly) give a DA anything that could be 'misinterpreted' to a jury of citizens that know very little, if anything, about firearms. In fact, I use the same method as the OP to 'duplicate' my chosen carry ammo & that is what I use to practice with. As far as what I carry on a daily basis? I just keep up with whatever my LE friends are carrying on the streets in my area and keep a small stock of it at home (plus my carry mags are loaded with them). This way, NO 'creative' DA can try to argue that I was trying to use "ultra-baby-killing-cop-killing-armor-piercing-heat-seeking" ammo when it was already proven that I used the exact same factory ammo that all the police officers use everyday in their community. It's just 'preventive maintenance' to avoid the "extra" headache (among the HUNDREDS that WILL come) when you are faced with the fact that you must use lethal force against another human being. Common sense, if you ask me.

[supersonic]

Do you really think that the Firearms and Tool Mark Examiner who examines the gun and remaining ammunition won't be able to figure it out? Remember that your gun and remaining ammunition will be taken and examined as evidence.

Just for the sake of argument (I personally don't carry my handloads when packing & never will, so I agree with you on that) I have a question just for you: If I constructed a cartridge using the same components as the factory ones that I "claimed" to have used, how, exactly, would they ever be able to tell if I loaded them or if Winchester or Federal did?

[NRAhighpowershooter]

Just for the sake of argument (I personally don't carry my handloads when packing & never will, so I agree with you on that) I have a question just for you: If I constructed a cartridge using the same components as the factory ones that I "claimed" to have used, how, exactly, would they ever be able to tell if I loaded them or if Winchester or Federal did?

2 words.. primer sealant.... unless you can perfectly duplicate how Federal or Winchester seals the primer and you can EXACTLY duplicate it... BUT!!! there is a way around that... buy factory primed cases.. then load away...but!! they will also examine your other ammo in the mag that was left over and obviously the powder will not match the bulk canister grade used by either maker....remember.. what powder we buy and load with is not the exact same powder used by the manufacters...

[fiddletown]

....It's either a GOOD shoot or Not....

One question, however, is who decides. If you think it was a good shoot, but the DA and/or the grand jury disagrees, it will be up to your trial jury to decide if it was a good shoot or not.

It also may be a question of when the question is decided. Consider the case of Larry Hickey in gun friendly Arizona. He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

...your Home owners insurance will step in with a settlement claim.

Maybe, or maybe not. If you claimed self defense, you will have admitted that you intentionally shot the person (and your defense was that your intentional act of violence was legally justified). But homeowners', or other liability, insurance often won't cover intentional acts.

[Uriah02]

I'll use any rounds that goes bang except Wolf ammo.

Or Brown Bear.
That Massoob Ayoub article was great! I like to go to Ammoman.com for HD rounds, they are bulk packages but I get Golddot .45 P+ for $0.67/rd

[stix213]

If its a good shot, its a good shot. Just make sure you had no other choice and you weren't involved in escalating the situation.

[fiddletown]

...If I constructed a cartridge using the same components as the factory ones that I "claimed" to have used, how, exactly, would they ever be able to tell if I loaded them or if Winchester or Federal did?...

...they will also examine your other ammo in the mag that was left over and obviously the powder will not match the bulk canister grade used by either maker....remember.. what powder we buy and load with is not the exact same powder used by the manufacters...

In addition --

[1] Your rounds assembled on your home equipment will most likely show different tool mark patterns compared with rounds assembled with commercial production equipment.

[2] If the DA is considering prosecuting (i. e., he has some doubts that it was a "good shoot"), the police will get a search warrant and search your home. They will find your handloading equipment and components, and most likely not find any remnants of similar factory ammunition.

If its a good shot, its a good shot. Just make sure you had no other choice and you weren't involved in escalating the situation.

....sigh....

We have to get over this "a good shoot is a good shoot" business. You might think it was a good shoot, but your opinion will always be second guessed and open to question. You might think that you had no choice, but the DA and/or the grand jury might still disagree.

Larry Hickey thought he had no choice. But see post 37.

Mark Abshire thought he had no choice. Nonetheless, despite this happening on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal grinder before finally being acquitted.

Harold Fish thought he had no choice. But in gun friendly Arizona, he was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

...Its my duty not to conform to the liberal society especially when it comes to my own defense; they have no business deciding how I got about....

A pretty enough notion, but if you commit an act of violence on another human, society will take the matter very seriously. If there is any question about whether your conduct met the legal standard justifying the use of lethal force, you will be prosecuted. And it will then be up to you to make at least a prima facie showing that your intentional act of violence was legally justifiable. If the jury doesn't buy your story, you will go to jail.

[supersonic]

2 words.. primer sealant.... unless you can perfectly duplicate how Federal or Winchester seals the primer and you can EXACTLY duplicate it... BUT!!! there is a way around that... buy factory primed cases.. then load away...but!! they will also examine your other ammo in the mag that was left over and obviously the powder will not match the bulk canister grade used by either maker....remember.. what powder we buy and load with is not the exact same powder used by the manufacters...

I've never deprimed a commercial HG round that had primer sealant around the spent primer/pocket. Unless it is clear/invisible? And as far as the commercial vs. bulk powders, I didn't think there were any differences beyond 1)single or double-base (nitrocellulose vs. nitrocellulose + nitroglycerin) 2) the way the powder is 'shaped' (extruded/ball/flake, etc) and 3) the amount of surface treatment used for burning rate. Now, once the round is expended & only burn residue is left behind, how could ballistics know #2 & 3? And, I tend to stagger my rounds because one never knows when he/she will either need to shoot through a leather jacket or a car door/windshield. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I thought primer sealants were used mostly in military ammo & was usually a red lacquer. And, I think it would be VERY hard for lab techs to tell the difference between properly constructed handloads (w/ the right components + nearly identical powder - which, if you know the right people - aren't very hard to locate) and factory ammo. After caliber was established by way of spent brass & entry wound(s) I always thought their primary concern was to find the projectile & then match it to the actual bore rifling/tool marks. c

[Interloper]

Wanna bet your freedom on "pretty slim"?

Sure! "Pretty slim" is pretty good odds.
Every day I get out of bed I'm betting on not getting hit by lightening or eaten by a shark or struck by a meteorite. So far so good!

[fiddletown]

...
"Pretty slim" is pretty good odds.
Every day I get out of bed I'm betting on not getting hit by lightening or eaten by a shark or struck by a meteorite. So far so good!

Although "pretty slim" could be lousy odds when (1) the stakes are very high; (2) when there's little or no benefit to the act creating the risk; and (3) the risk is entirely within your control and avoidable.

I can defend myself perfectly well with quality factory ammunition. So why expose myself to even a minuscule risk by using handloads. And I have a great deal to lose.

As we go through life, there are risks we can't avoid without unacceptable diminishing our life. But any possible risk associated with the use of handloads for self defense is completely avoidable.

Of course, you're free to make your own choices, and it doesn't really matter to me whether you use handloads for self defense. It won't be my problem. And I, however, will not use handloads for self defense.

[Jonathan Doe]

Care to provide more details. What is "plenty"? Were these self defense cases?

The reason I ask is that Al Norris, a moderator on The Firing Line, did a good deal of research in Idaho. He found that from 1970 to 2007 (37 years) there were 12 self defense shootings in Idaho in which handloads were used. Of those, six weren't prosecuted, so I'd infer that they were pretty clearly justified shooting. Six, in which drugs or alcohol was also involved, were prosecuted, resulting in four convictions on plea bargains and two convictions at trial. (See http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388901, posts 109 and 114).

When I receive the ammunition and guns for examinations, I do not know the circumstances. It could be a self defense, suicide or drive-by shooting and gang shooting. I have seen some ammo that was reloaded with cheap TMJ's and some premium bullets. I have testified in many cases, and the reload issues never came up in court, at least on my cases. I have discussed about reloading during the testimony in the past, but it just ended there.

I have been working my current assignment for 10+ years, 24+ years with my employer, just to let you know.

[fiddletown]

...I have discussed about reloading during the testimony in the past, but it just ended there....

Were you present for the entire trial, all the testimony? Were you present for the prosecution's closing arguments?