AD vs ND, a new perspective

[Toolbox X]

I often see debates between the terms "Accidental Discharge" and "Negligent Discharge". As with many gun issues, some people put a lot of passion behind their opinions. I have seen many people get very passionate about there being no such thing as an Accidental Discharge. To them all AD's are really ND's.

Personally I could care less if they are called AD or ND. However, recently I learned of an interesting perspective on this AD/ND debate.

In civil court the entire case depends on proving negligence.
Negligence is a 'legal cause' of damage if it directly and in natural and continuous sequence produces or contributes substantially to producing such damage, so it can reasonably be said that if not for the negligence, the loss, injury or damage would not have occurred.

For example, if you shoot and kill someone in absolutely clear self defense, you will be cleared of any criminal charges. However, in civil court you will have to prove you were not negligent. That means you have to prove you did everything to kill the person legally. If you were carrying your gun illegally you would be found negligent because if you had not broken the law the person would not have been killed, and you are now civilly liable. Stupid but that's our court system.

Back to AD vs ND. Even if you are extremely passionate about there being no such thing as an AD, that all AD's are really ND's, I recommend you ALWAYS refer to ND's as AD's. If an injury ever resulted from an AD/ND and you openly call it an ND you have just admitted negligence in civil court. In court an 'accident' is forgivable while 'negligence' means you are forever ruined financially.

I am not a lawyer. Hopefully I am not too far off base.

[Once A Marine]

Regardless of how you spin it, an ND is an ND. Anyone who pops off a round while handling their firearm (cleaning, holding, dicking around, moving it, etc) is guilty of an ND.

The thread about a gun that fell from a safe shelf and went off in the handgun forum is an example of an AD.

[Toolbox X]

Regardless of how you spin it, an ND is an ND. Anyone who pops off a round while handling their firearm (cleaning, holding, dicking around, moving it, etc) is guilty of an ND.

The thread about a gun that fell from a safe shelf and went off in the handgun forum is an example of an AD.

I'm not saying ND people are wrong. I'm just saying if you ever have an ND happen and someone gets hurt I would make sure everyone and everything, especially the police report, says it was an AD.

[RedFord150]

I do not know if OP is right or wrong in his explanation.
I do know that OP makes an excellent point in considering legal ramifications before speaking to Law Enforcement or someone who might have a reason to sue you.
Whether your gun went off accidentally or negligently or your dog bit someone or your kid ran his bike into a car or your ladder fell over and hit the mailman, you might be wise to SAY AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE until you have gotten real legal advice. Sometimes a single word might make the difference.
If something goes wrong, you might have a team of lawyers looking to screw you over. You than find out your High School Civics Teacher was not all that great.

[-hanko]

I am not a lawyer. Hopefully I am not too far off base.

[ar15barrels]

Regardless of how you spin it, an ND is an ND. Anyone who pops off a round while handling their firearm (cleaning, holding, dicking around, moving it, etc) is guilty of an ND.

The thread about a gun that fell from a safe shelf and went off in the handgun forum is an example of an AD.

What about a handgun that falls from a holster and lands muzzle-down on the concrete and fires?
The shooters hands were nowhere near the holster at the time.

AD or ND?

[Noobert]

^ That's a HFD (holster fault discharge)

[ar15barrels]

^ That's a HFD (holster fault discharge)

Whatever it is, it happened to me.
I stopped using that holster after that.

[Spyduh]

^ That's a HFD (holster fault discharge)

[Toolbox X]

^ That's a HFD (holster fault discharge)

Is that an AHFD or NHFD?

[Brianguy]

Whatever it is, it happened to me.
I stopped using that holster after that.

What a crappy holster! May I ask what kind of holster?

[Once A Marine]

What about a handgun that falls from a holster and lands muzzle-down on the concrete and fires?
The shooters hands were nowhere near the holster at the time.

AD or ND?

I'd call that a brown star cluster

[taloft]

Your best bet is to say nothing and lawyer up.

That may be a great idea from a legal stand point but, 99% of all accidental shootings are due to negligence. You have to violate at least two major gun safety rules in order to cause an ND resulting in injuries. For example:

1. Muzzle not pointed in a safe direction + Finger on trigger = ND with injuries
2. Loaded gun place on top shelf of safe + Safety not engaged on loaded firearm = ND with injuries

In both examples, two safety violations have occurred.

1. Muzzle discipline and trigger discipline.
2. Firearm loaded while not being used and loaded firearm with safety not engaged while not in shooters control.

Had only one violation been the case, there would have been no injuries. One safety violation might be accidental, two is negligence. It could be argued that a loaded revolver doesn't have a safety. I'd argue that most modern revolvers utilize a transfer bar system to prevent discharges due to dropping. If your revolver is old and uses a firing pin on the hammer with no pin block, leave the hammer down on an empty chamber. Same goes for firearms that drop from holsters. If the safeties are engaged they won't discharge from an impact. While there are some exceptions, e.g. early model 1911's, most modern models won't do this. A better question is why wasn't the retention on your holster set properly? As can easily be seen, most ND's can be prevented with a minimum of effort. A true AD is as rare as hens teeth. A Ricochet from a backstop hotspot that hits someone on the line would be a true AD. They do happen but, most AD's are in fact ND's.

ar15barrels: It would depend on the circumstances. I'm gonna guess that you had a pre 80's series 1911 in a holster with crap retention and no thumb break. Maybe you were running and gunning at an event or just doing jumping jacks. The gun pops out, lands muzzle down causing the firing pin to slam into the round. The gun jumps in the air, and so do you. No injuries resulted other than your faith in said holster. Please, correct anything that's wrong. I'm always interested in hearing about such situations. I don't mind learning at your expense.

[Spaceghost]

I would say it was an G.I.A.D. more commonly known as a Gremlin induced accidental discharge. They mess with your gear while you look at porn. Proven fact.

What about a handgun that falls from a holster and lands muzzle-down on the concrete and fires?
The shooters hands were nowhere near the holster at the time.

AD or ND?

[Once A Marine]

I do not know if OP is right or wrong in his explanation.
I do know that OP makes an excellent point in considering legal ramifications before speaking to Law Enforcement or someone who might have a reason to sue you.
Whether your gun went off accidentally or negligently or your dog bit someone or your kid ran his bike into a car or your ladder fell over and hit the mailman, you might be wise to SAY AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE until you have gotten real legal advice. Sometimes a single word might make the difference.
If something goes wrong, you might have a team of lawyers looking to screw you over. You than find out your High School Civics Teacher was not all that great.

I really don't think how you describe it to a police officer will make a difference.

The subsequent investigation will certianly make a difference though. If it was through a negligent act on your part, you'll most likely end up with a negligence charge.

If it was determined to be accidental, then most likely you'll be cleared.