Sass

[WINGEDSWORD]

I think we need a new organization to compete with the Single Action Shooting society to sponser old west style competition shooting. If you look at it from a historical standpoint, many of SASS's rules are innaccurate, arbitrary and assinine. Also many of them cater to their sponsers, forcing you to buy more equipment. Example. When they started, you could get by with 1 SA revolver, a double barrel shotgun and a lever action carbine. Now, they want you to have two handguns! Also, double action revolvers were all over the west, since the time of the Civil War! They also say that the only allowable pump shotgun is the Winchester '97. Ignoring the Winchester '93, the Marlin and the Spencer! I say that we need an organization that caters more to the individual having fun and less to the prejudices of SASS's founders! Abyone interested?

[MadMex]

Do ranges ever host any such thing as a “fun match” for SASS, where the procedural and / or equipment rules are loosened up a little (as long as safety is not compromised)? It’s not uncommon in non-SASS events.

[bwiese]

I know SASS has some more 'open' shoots where looser authenticity rules apply - i.e. Blackhawks instead of Vaqueros, less restriction on clothing, etc.

It may depend on local organizers how many of the 'looser' events are held, etc.

Also, expecting the "Single Action Shooting Society" to wildly welcome DA wheelguns really doesn't make much sense. They took the name for a reason.

[CA357]

Speaking of shotguns, what about the Greener as well?

[Alan Block]

NCOWS is for the more historically ept

shooters and Rooger blackhawks can be used in SASS Modern category.
I started when you could get by with one revolver and I hate that they now require 2. My leather will only take one. By Greener do you mean the double guns or the 14 ga martini based shotguns used by the british police.

[WINGEDSWORD]

Sass

Bwiese, If you had read my post, I am not and never was expecting SASS to
to accept DA revolvers. I am perfectly capable of understanding the printed word. My problem is their claim,"As close to the old west as you can get without a time machine" If you look at it from the point of what the old west really was, they're not even close. I'm an ameteur historian who has done a lot of research. The "average" cowboy couldn't use a revolver very effectively
and many of them didn't even use gunbelts and holsters as such. I am not arguing the point of 'Leather" What I am saying is that an organization should be started, that is about enjoying matches that emulate the old west, but is
more about the members having fun than it is about satisfying the predjudices
of the originators. I would also open up the time frame to about 1912.(when Arizona and New Mexico became states.) My Mother was born in Arizona in 1913. She has related stories from my Grandfather, a Peace officer and Arizona, at least, was still "Wild West" well into the 1920's. I am not using this last one as a criteria but my mother tells of her cousin, a working cattle
Rancher riding up to their home, on horseback, in the 20's with a Luger stuck
into his pocket and a .30-40 Krag Cavalry carbine in a saddle boot!

[bwiese]

Wingsword,

SASS is about 'approximations'. It's supposed to be fun, and some people get into some areas/subsegments more than others. You're just turning their explanatory statements against them and overreading.

I suspect a second organization will fail, as there's really only room for one. Kinda like trying to start a second EBay, it won't happen.

If you don't like SASS, join it, vote in its organization, and try to change it. Or, just go shoot SAs by yourself.

However SASS is arranged, it's pretty good group as it has brought a ton of folks into the shooting sports.

[SASS was a bit politically naive and accidentally helped bring about SB15 because their leadership didn't understand Sacramento politics (unlike the near-evil CRPA, which also helped bring SB15 into fruition. [SB15 is the 'unsafe handgun' laws, the 'Roster of safe Handguns', etc.]

[WINGEDSWORD]

Sass

Bill, You may be right, that there is only room for one such type organization.
You could also be wrong. Because the odds may be against it, should not stop us from trying. I am not saying that the SASS people are "bad people".
I know several of them and overall, they're nice people and dedicated to the shooting sports. I'm all for that. But in this particular area, they are very hidebound and opinionated. The general attitude is "Don't try to confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!" I'v even had a couple of them try to convince me that the Single Action Army is the best gun for self defense! Don't mistake me. I own a Ruger Vaquero and a couple of percussion revolvers. I enjoy shooting them. But I wouldn't exclude everything else!
Rees Barr. Los Angeles

[CALI-gula]

I was always under the impression that guns in SASS had to be pre-1898 and Single Action only, so never questioned it. The 2 pistol requirement does seems to push the limit of necessity.

However, SASS is the biggest thing going in that arena, and for the most part, they have done it very well, which is why it is so popular. I must agree with Bill that a second organization doing the same thing would likely not even get off the ground - it would not be different enough from other shooting classes as is SASS, which makes it so popular. I would bet the satisfaction rate among members of SASS floats around 90% to 100% and that group really likes the board and organization.

The historical accuracy aside, I don't think they want to turn it into a nutty "Kings English only" Renaissance fair either. They understand that excluding all modern aspects and luxuries, and being too strict on the historical authenticity would make it too esoteric, would discourage the average Joe from joining, and suck the fun out of the fact that the main premise is having fun while shooting the old single actions.

WINGEDSWORD: You noted the Luger being used in the 1920's old west - that was actually quite common with folk returning from WWI. Also, the Mauser Broomhandle 1896 was a favorite, and commercial models were brought in by New York importing firms from the very beginning. My commercial broomhandle has documentation that it had been in California since 1899 by an old frontiersman. In fact, check out the fairly accurate gun movie "Joe Kidd" with Clint Eastwood (Joe Kidd) and Robert Duvall (Frank Harlan) - one of the gun-slinging security guard/bounty hunter characters played by Don Stroud (Lamarr Simms) working for Harlan carries a "new" C96 and he discusses why in the film.



.

[Alan Block]

There are several categories in SASS that demand a more authentic

setup than most. Classic Cowboy category requires certain clothing and gear that is more 1880s bound such as a hammer shotgun, iron sighted pistols and 1873 or earlier winchesters. In addition there are sometimes themed shoots such as a Wild Bunch match (not SASS scored) which require the same number and type of guns as the movie. (sometimes a machine gun is provided)

[CA357]

I meant the old double barrelled short barrel ones. I think they were 10GA.

[nearsightednate]

Hi.

There is a second Cowboy Action Shooting organization called Western 3 Gun (www.western3gun.com) held it's first match (the W3G World Cup) in 2004. They have a slightly different set of rules than SASS and allow some of the firearms that SASS does not. If you want o be more historically correct, then NCOWS is closer to what you're looking for. SASS is a fantasy game just like when you played cowboys and indians when you were young. Everything you did and said wasn't "period correct" but you had a great time! (You did have a great time didn't you?) SASS is like that in the sense that there are a large number of categories to choose from, some more "authentic" than others. I'm sure everyone can find a category that they like for any reason they like.

Come out to a SASS match and you'll get an idea of what the organization is really like. If you come to one of the 2 clubs I belong to, I'll let you try out my firearms as well as provide the ammo.

Nearsighted Nate
SASS# 44088L

[WINGEDSWORD]

Sass

I guess I haven't made my points as clearly as I should have. I wasn't arguing
for the inclusion of DA revolvers or semi-autos. I was using those to prove the
point that many of the SASS rules are purely arbitrary and in the case of Shotguns unreasonable. For instance The 97 Winchester or replicas can be used, but the 93 Can't. Why? Reasonable justification or personal prejudice?
One of the rules I read said only guns that were in use before 1900. Yet I've seen pictures of Loop lever Winchesters and Rossis. That modification didn't
exist until the movie"Stagecoach" Circa 1940. Or Rifles is the Spencer replica
allowed? It was around before the Winchester. It Also seems to me, that certain of their rules and policies are for the monetary benefit of high ranking
members and not for the rank and file.

[nearsightednate]

Hi.

The Winchester '93 and Marlin 1898 pumps were deemed to be unsafe and by default that leaves the Winchester '97 and clones. There is a '93/'97 Model that has been ruled illegal due to an apparently larger ejection port, which aids in loading the shotgun faster. Ruger Blackhawks were allowed because they were a very common and less expensive alternative to Colt's when the sport got started. Once Ruger came out with the Vaquero, it was allowed in since the Blackhawks were already allowed. The large loop winchester were popularized by te rifleman as well as other western movies and tv shows, but are based on the '92 and '94 Winchesters. The Rossi's are clones of the '92. Spencers are allowed in, but are not competitive. A lot of fun, but not competitive. The Wild Bunch invented the game and own the rights to the game so by all rights they can call the shots as they see fit. However, a lot of rules are introduced through the Territorial Governor's and voted on to be determined what the geberal poroulation want to see change or stay the same. SASS may not be a perfect organization/company but it's doing something right because membership continues to grow. There are over 75,000 registered members worldwide.

Happy Trails.
Nearsighted Nate
SASS # 44088L

I guess I haven't made my points as clearly as I should have. I wasn't arguing
for the inclusion of DA revolvers or semi-autos. I was using those to prove the
point that many of the SASS rules are purely arbitrary and in the case of Shotguns unreasonable. For instance The 97 Winchester or replicas can be used, but the 93 Can't. Why? Reasonable justification or personal prejudice?
One of the rules I read said only guns that were in use before 1900. Yet I've seen pictures of Loop lever Winchesters and Rossis. That modification didn't
exist until the movie"Stagecoach" Circa 1940. Or Rifles is the Spencer replica
allowed? It was around before the Winchester. It Also seems to me, that certain of their rules and policies are for the monetary benefit of high ranking
members and not for the rank and file.

[ivorykid]

For instance The 97 Winchester or replicas can be used, but the 93 Can't. Why? Reasonable justification or personal prejudice?

As Nearsighted Nate said, the '93 was deemed unsafe. The 93 is capable of firing out of battery due to some design flaws, which were fixed in the model of 1897. I have heard a couple of different stories about the "design flaws," including the lack of a recoil lock or the faulty operation of the shell flag, but both stories yielded the same result: an out-of-battery firing condition. Some people, unaware of the safety issue, were unhappy about the decision to disallow the 93 because they liked the higher ejection port, which allowed for easier single-loading. It is, however, in SASS's best interest to not have shotguns blowing up at matches!

Ivory Kid
SASS #27455