.44 Magnum the same as .308?

[elSquid]

Energy "Dumping=lethality" is BS the energy is split evenly between the shooter and the target.

I think you are confusing "energy" with "momentum".

-- Michael

[locosway]

I stole this off another site since it's a good example of the two...

"Kinetic energy is a magnitude. It only describes how hard an object in motion will another object and is expressed in foot pounds. Momentum is the application of kinetic energy and is expressed in joules, foot pounds per second, etc..... When comparing moving objects that are similar (IE, bullets of different weights and velocities), the projectile with more momentum would tend to move its target father regardless of kinetic energy.
Example.... A rimfire rifle is fired at a steel plate at 50 yards. If you hit it, it flips over. You have a choice of using a rifle that will propel a 40 grain bullet at 1249 f/p/s, or a 17 grain bullet at 2199 f/p/s at 50 yards (these are actual figures). If you only used the formula for KE, you would find the bullets would provide 139 ft-lbs & 183 ft-lbs respectively, so you would likely pick the bullet with the higher KE for the task at hand. Looking into the figures a little more, by figuring momentum.......the 40 grain bullet would provide 7.14 ft-lbs/second, and the 17 grain bullet would provide 5.34 ft-lbs/second (weight/7000*velocity). The heavier, slower bullet would be more likely to flip the plate because it has more momentum even though the lighter faster bullet has 44 more ft-lbs of kinetic energy."

[7.62 FMJ]

I think you are confusing "energy" with "momentum".

-- Michael

Unless your bullets have a rocket on the back of them they pushed off of your shoulder, they pick up no speed after leaving the barrel. therefore they are moving slower and carrying less energy when they hit the target than they were when they hit you.

[locosway]

Unless your bullets have a rocket on the back of them they pushed off of your shoulder, they pick up no speed after leaving the barrel. therefore they are moving slower and carrying less energy when they hit the target than they were when they hit you.

I think you're misreading what he was saying. He's not saying that the person would be knocked down, just that different bullets have different energy transfers which is true.

[7.62 FMJ]

I think you're misreading what he was saying. He's not saying that the person would be knocked down, just that different bullets have different energy transfers which is true.

I understand that. All energy which is not transferred into your body is converted to a very small amount of heat and is meaningless in regards to the wound.

[elSquid]

Unless your bullets have a rocket on the back of them they pushed off of your shoulder, they pick up no speed after leaving the barrel. therefore they are moving slower and carrying less energy when they hit the target than they were when they hit you.

What happens to the bullet after it leaves the barrel has no bearing on recoil.

Conservation of momentum.

Since position in space is a vector quantity, momentum (being the canonical conjugate of position) is a vector quantity as well - it has direction. Thus, when a gun is fired, the final total momentum of the system (the gun and the bullet) is the vector sum of the momenta of these two objects. Assuming that the gun and bullet were at rest prior to firing (meaning the initial momentum of the system was zero), the final total momentum must also equal 0.

-- Michael

[locosway]

Math used to calculate terminal performance is Sectional Density, Momentum, and Kinetic Energy. All I did was turn two of those into an easy to read number.

[bruceflinch]

[QUOTE=cmonk518;2997353]Forget all the books, formulas, stats, gelatin, etc. that people give you or from forums!!

Best thing to do is grab yourself a .44 mag and .308 and go out and shoot some animals and do a little bit of comparing and contrasting for yourself. There's just WAY too much info out there that either discredits or disproves one another and just ends up being an argument. That way you personally know for yourself what might fit your needs.

QUOTE]

Maybe borrow a couple inmates from Death Row?

[7.62 FMJ]

If a person who weighs 265 lbs ran and hit you moving 20 mph you would receive 3543.504594779 lb/ft of energy. It's amazing that you will likely survive while a .44 cal bullet with only 1300 lb/ft is lethal. Maybe that's because "energy dump" is meaningless.

[locosway]

sectional density?

You have to take into account friction. Obviously the smaller the focal point of the energy the less friction is encountered when encountering another object.

[7.62 FMJ]

sectional density?

You have to take into account friction. Obviously the smaller the focal point of the energy the less friction is encountered when encountering another object.

I have obviously not made myself clear, I am not arguing with your formula all i am saying is that the energy that is transferred is meaningless. What matters is the diameter of the hole and how deep it is and how bad you bleed.

[locosway]

Aye, and that's what I was aiming for with my formula.

Sectional Density and Momentum, both are attributing factors FOR BULLETS (not medicine balls... ) when determining Terminal Performance.

[Citizen Snips]

I think it'd be a good idea to include in the comparison one of those new EFMJ medicine balls just to get a complete picture.

[1911su16b870]

Marshall and Sanow have a compilation of "One shot stops" for a variety of cartridges in Chapter 29 of their book Stopping Power.

page 309, 44 Magnum, the #1 loading is Winchester 210 grain, 65 of 71 instances for 92% one shot stop with average recovered diameter of 0.81 and average penetration of 16.3 inches. The other 6 loadings had 76-90% one shot stops. If I average the top 6 it works out to be 291/337 or 86% one shot stops.

page 313, 308 Winchester, #1 to #6 loadings are all 168 grain match loads, 544/555 instances, with 98% one shot stops, average recovered diameter of 2-pieces, and average penetration of 24.24 inches.

The data is compiled from 25 years of study and criteria for inclusion are (page xiii):
1. Only torso hits
2. Only one shot, multiple hits were not included
3. When shot the aggressor must stop his attack
4. Only data from reviewed documented shoots was allowed
5. Recovered bullets were examined by the authors
6. 10 verified shootings were compiled prior to inclusion in the study

[locosway]

Interesting, and thanks for the info. Too bad they didn't give a velocity for those rounds, I'd have liked to run them through my model.