DOJ denied my transfer?

[Irish-Dannyboy]

Hey guys,

2 years ago I got sectioned 5150 - a genuine misunderstanding and was released in the minimum amount of time. A year and half after I began a petition to get my firearm prohibition lifted. The judge and DA were satisfied and restored my rights to own and possess firearms. They also gave me a copy of the minute order that was sent to the DOJ back in may.

Last week I tried to do a private party transfer with my friend at a gun store to try get my guns back from him and back into my name. The lady at the store contacted me yesterday to say I was denied. I tried to contact the DOJ but just got back a Generic email directing to me submitting the personal eligibility paperwork which I assume is more money.

Does anyone here know first of all will I receive some sort of denial letter with more Information on it?

And also what I should do to move forward.

I feel like I probably should have had the lady at the store attach that minute order to my paperwork.

The only thing I can think of here is that when filling out the paper work, the one question that asks have you EVER been institutionalized, I checked yes initially, then the lady told me that they can?t process it with a yes as it will be auto denied. Then she conferred with her colleague and stated that if I was cleared by the court I should answer NO to this question.

Any ideas guys? Thank you!

[SkyHawk]

The FFL cannot attach anything to the paperwork. Not a minute order, or a letter from your priest, or anything.

You must send the minute order to DOJ when you appeal the denial. You should get a denial letter in the mail, and it will have instructions on appealing. Begin the process right away.

Also, you can never answer yes to any question on the 4473 except the first question. Every other answer must be no or it is instant reject on the spot by the FFL.

A 5150 is not a commitment to a mental institution or a prohibiting event. Read the instructions for question 21h on who should answer yes:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

Question 21.h.
Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

Adjudicated as a Mental Defective: A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. This term shall include: (1) a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and (2) those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility.

Committed to a Mental Institution: A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.

EXCEPTION: Under the NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007, a person who has been adiudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental
institution in a State proceeding is not prohibited by the adjudication or commitment if the person has been granted relief by the adjudicating/committing State pursuant to a qualifying mental health relief from disabilities program. Also, a person who has been adiudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution by a department or agency of Federal Government is not prohibited by the adjudication or commitment if either: (a) the person's adjudication or commitment was set aside or expunged by the adjudicating/committing agency; (b) the person has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring by the agency; (c) the person was found by the agency to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that served as the basis of the initial adiudication/ commitment; (d) the adjudication or commitment, respectively, is based solely on a medical finding of disability, without an opportunity for a hearing by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority, and the person has not been adjudicated as a mental defective consistent with 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(4) or (e) the person was granted relief from the adjudicating/committing agency pursuant to a qualified mental health relief from disabilities program. This exception to an adjudication or commitment by a Federal department or agency does not apply to any person who was adjudicated to be not guilty by reason of insanity, or based on lack of mental responsibility, or found incompetent to stand trial, in any criminal case or under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Persons who fall within one of the above exceptions should answer "no" to question 21.h.

[baih777]

You need to give the DOJ 6 to 8 months to update your status.

[edgerly779]

Attaching anything to your app is a pipe dream. Try a pfec and see what shakes out. After you thought you were cleared who did you check with at at CADOJ. Did you a background check on yourself for felony convictions or criminal history.

[Irish-Dannyboy]

@skyhawk thank you for clearing that up. I understand. How does the appeal work, does the result mean you have to start the process again though at the FFL? Just curious.

@baih777 - interesting ok, you may be right.. the court said 30 days but then again they may not really know. Thank you.

@edgeryly779 pfec? Is that the personal exemption form? I don’t have any criminal convictions.

[Russian Bot]

Attempting again will likely result in another denial.
The court and the Firearms division of the DOJ are separate and likely don't know a whole lot about eachothers procedures.
I had a 5150 like 10 years ago. I just waited the 5 years that the paperwork they gave me said. Oddly only gun I've had that got even a delay was a part of a collection I bought.
The DOJ is SLOW I have guns in their system using my FFL03 and COE that still say pending 2 years later.
The PFEC is a Personal Firearms Eligibility Check.

[SkyHawk]

@skyhawk thank you for clearing that up. I understand. How does the appeal work, does the result mean you have to start the process again though at the FFL? Just curious.

It is possible that DOJ will issue an approval after denial. So you do not always have to start over at the FFL. It all depends on how fast you can get your appeal in and looked at, and get them to agree they made a mistake.

[Irish-Dannyboy]

Hey so I got the letter and the live scan instructions. I?m just unaware of how to get this minute order to them as the live scan is all an automated process.. Any ideas?

The FFL cannot attach anything to the paperwork. Not a minute order, or a letter from your priest, or anything.

You must send the minute order to DOJ when you appeal the denial. You should get a denial letter in the mail, and it will have instructions on appealing. Begin the process right away.

Also, you can never answer yes to any question on the 4473 except the first question. Every other answer must be no or it is instant reject on the spot by the FFL.

A 5150 is not a commitment to a mental institution or a prohibiting event. Read the instructions for question 21h on who should answer yes:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/44...53009/download

[SkyHawk]

Hey so I got the letter and the live scan instructions. I?m just unaware of how to get this minute order to them as the live scan is all an automated process.. Any ideas?

do the appeal instructions not include any address to submit additional documentation? read them very carefully, several times

[ar15barrels]

Hey so I got the letter and the live scan instructions. I?m just unaware of how to get this minute order to them as the live scan is all an automated process.. Any ideas?

Everything is automated.
You won't be able to submit your extra papers through any of the automated processes.
You will need to manually deal with the DOJ to get them to accept your court papers and update their records.
It will likely take much longer than the 30 day clock since you started the PPT so you will have to run the PPT again AFTER you have confirmation from the DOJ.
Don't attempt any more transfers until you are sure they have actually fixed the problem as they will keep getting denials.
Even after you get confirmation that the DOJ fixed the problem, I would run a PFEC just to be sure before you waste another DROS fee.

[Irish-Dannyboy]

Thanks guys. Yea they’re not really anything for additional documents just an email. That I will try. It’s not possible it seems to get a human on the phone.

[The Gleam]

Thanks guys. Yea they?re not really anything for additional documents just an email. That I will try. It?s not possible it seems to get a human on the phone.

I just saw a recent thread here in the past few weeks of someone discussing a tip/trick to get someone at the BOF/DOJ on the phone over a problem they had with their COE renewal, LEGR, or DROS - something like that. It's around here somewhere.

Can't recall what it was, but I think they had a phone number that was more direct than numbers posted on the DOJ website - or maybe they sat on hold for a really long time.

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[ar15barrels]

I just saw a recent thread here in the past few weeks of someone discussing a tip/trick to get someone at the BOF/DOJ on the phone over a problem they had with their COE renewal, LEGR, or DROS - something like that. It's around here somewhere.

Can't recall what it was, but I think they had a phone number that was more direct than numbers posted on the DOJ website - or maybe they sat on hold for a really long time.

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There is a support number for dealers needing help with DES but they will not help you there if you are not a dealer or COE holder needing help with DES.

[The Gleam]

There is a support number for dealers needing help with DES but they will not help you there if you are not a dealer or COE holder needing help with DES.

Maybe it was that; Idon't want to give anyone false hope, but I could have sworn they were discussing getting a DROS issue fixed as a consumer/buyer. I'll try to find it later.

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[ar15barrels]

The number is for dealers needing support with the DROS system.
That would likely include a specific DROS transaction as well as the website.
I have only ever called it when I had problems updating my DES login password.
The DOJ needs your FFL number, CFD number, COE and drivers license numbers to reset your password.
What they don't tell you is that they don't want your CURRENT FFL but they want the FFL that you had when you first signed up for DES.
So if you try to re-set your password after it expires, you need to use the FFL that you had when you first signed up for DES.

Stupid me was trying to use the CURRENT FFL for one of my employers and the person on the DES helpline caught it when I read the current FFL number to them and they told me what digit was wrong.
The digit was the one that increments by 3 every 3 years when you renew...
The rest of the FFL number stays the same at each renewal.

Maybe it was that; Idon't want to give anyone false hope, but I could have sworn they were discussing getting a DROS issue fixed as a consumer/buyer. I'll try to find it later.

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