Transferring a rifle/handgun right before turning 18/21

[oogabooga]

I've had this hypothetical sitting in the back of my head for awhile. It's a pretty specific scenario, but will help me understand transfers a little bit more clearly. I've only done 2 out of state transfers, and they were done so professionally, I didn't need to worry about much of the tiny details going on with the FFLs' interactions that the customer never sees.

Someone is 20 years and 11 months old, and about to turn 21 and wants to buy a pistol on his birthday (or 17 years and 11 months old about to turn 18 in the case of a long gun purchase). If he wanted to transfer the respective firearm from out of state (ex. purchased at an online retailer), would he be able to:
1) PAY the out of state retailer for the firearm (despite being underage at the time of payment)
2) Then have the retailer send the firearm to a CA FFL
3) Then have the firearm wait at the CA FFL until his birthday (within the allowed time) and start the DROS on his birthday

I figured the actual transferring of the firearm does not happen till the DROS/4473 is filled and sent out, but is it legal for him to pay the out of state online retailer for the firearm (ie. PURCHASE) PRIOR to him becoming the required age?

A few bits of info that I've picked up over the years that may be correct or incorrect. Correct me accordingly:
-An FFL will expect you to DROS the firearm within 30 days of receiving the transferred firearm
-Age isn't "checked" till the day of DROS. (Checked = checked against required age to purchase firearm by DOJ)

I guess a related question that could possibly answer all of the above would be: When an out of state retailer transfers a firearm to a CA FFL, is the "ownership" of the firearm in the hands of the CA FFL, and considered the CA FFL's stock, until the DROS starts for the customer?

Apologies if some terms have been misused or if the post seems like a jumbled mess. I just had a lot of laws and procedures regarding the topic floating around in my head. It was hard enough getting the above train wreck down on paper. If clarification is required, I'll be happy to provide.

[JDay]

Not legal, how hard is it to wait a month?

[forgiven]

I hate waiting even for a minute.

[FS00008]

How is it not legal though?

[halifax]

Personally, I don't see a problem unless the online dealer asks for proof of age with the credit card. The transfer isn't complete until the buyer takes possession.

[popeye4]

Put down a deposit......

[oogabooga]

Waiting is painful for the impatient
Also, say there is a good deal online that you've gotta jump on quick. Firearm availability, now, has been pretty iffy if you're looking for something specific.

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm still curious as to why it would not be legal either. I just want to separate common sense speculation and irrational procedures of law for my own clarification on how exactly the transfer process works. Guess I'm still looking for an answer, though.

[halifax]

Waiting is painful for the impatient
Also, say there is a good deal online that you've gotta jump on quick. Firearm availability, now, has been pretty iffy if you're looking for something specific.

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm still curious as to why it would not be legal either. I just want to separate common sense speculation and irrational procedures of law for my own clarification on how exactly the transfer process works. Guess I'm still looking for an answer, though.

I think some people interpret the "purchase" language used by the ATF (as in shall not purchase) to be the actual paying for the firearm. Others, like myself, see the purchase as the whole process that only concludes when the buyer takes possession of the firearm.

[oogabooga]

I think some people interpret the "purchase" language used by the ATF (as in shall not purchase) to be the actual paying for the firearm. Others, like myself, see the purchase as the whole process that only concludes when the buyer takes possession of the firearm.

Yea, I get exactly where you're coming from.
My opinion is the same as yours in thinking that the transference of MONEY does not count as the actual "purchase." (But I could be wrong)

That's why I'm curious as to what actually happens during a firearms transfer from a retailer to a CA FFL. As one of my original questions stated: When an out of state retailer transfers a firearm to a CA FFL, is the "ownership" of the firearm in the hands of the CA FFL, and considered the CA FFL's stock, until the DROS starts for the customer?

In my mind I'm thinking this: anybody can dish out the cash for the firearm to the online retailer, but the CA FFL is actually the one who is receiving the firearm. (Kind of like buying a gift for somebody). Then the CA FFL "sells" the firearm to the customer who dished out the cash.
Again, all speculation.

[popeye4]

I think there's a difference between "purchase" and "possession". The FFL is a transfer "agent" and doesn't actually "own" the gun in question (unless he is a stocking dealer). I'd say the argument could be made that you purchase the gun when you pay the money to the seller. Everything that comes after that is part of the transfer (shipping, transfer period, DROS, etc).

Perhaps you should ask this question over in the "legal" section.....

[oogabooga]

I think there's a difference between "purchase" and "possession". The FFL is a transfer "agent" and doesn't actually "own" the gun in question (unless he is a stocking dealer). I'd say the argument could be made that you purchase the gun when you pay the money to the seller. Everything that comes after that is part of the transfer (shipping, transfer period, DROS, etc).

Perhaps you should ask this question over in the "legal" section.....

That is also a possibility that is likely to be true. It would be great if somebody who knows for sure could chime in. If a Mod wants to move this thread over to the legal section, I wouldn't mind. Just don't want to create a duplicate thread.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

The Federal restriction on FFL's transfering firearms to underage people inlcudes a ban on both the "sale or delivery" of firearms. So you could say that even selling the gun to an underage person would violate the law, even though the out of state FFL would be delivering the gun to your local FFL Dealer.

But Federal law also says that the above restrictions only come into play if the FFL "knows or has reasonable cause to believe" that the buyer is under age. I don't think an out of state FFL would know or have reasonable cause to believe that you are underage when you pay for something online or over the phone, since he is really going to transfer the gun to your local FFL. So he would probably be in the clear. Your local FFL will know your age, since he is required to look at your ID, but by the time he does this you will be of legal age.

[JDay]

How is it not legal though?

You cant legally purchase a firearm until you're 18. Just because you haven't taken possession doesn't matter.

[JDay]

I think some people interpret the "purchase" language used by the ATF (as in shall not purchase) to be the actual paying for the firearm. Others, like myself, see the purchase as the whole process that only concludes when the buyer takes possession of the firearm.

Most states don't have a waiting period. Doesn't matter to the ATF anyway and you won't find an FFL willing to risk their license. If you really need to buy it now have a parent/grandparent get it for you then transfer on your birthday. You can even get a handgun this way legally when you turn 18.

[JDay]

The Federal restriction on FFL's transfering firearms to underage people inlcudes a ban on both the "sale or delivery" of firearms. So you could say that even selling the gun to an underage person would violate the law, even though the out of state FFL would be delivering the gun to your local FFL Dealer.

But Federal law also says that the above restrictions only come into play if the FFL "knows or has reasonable cause to believe" that the buyer is under age. I don't think an out of state FFL would know or have reasonable cause to believe that you are underage when you pay for something online or over the phone, since he is really going to transfer the gun to your local FFL. So he would probably be in the clear. Your local FFL will know your age, since he is required to look at your ID, but by the time he does this you will be of legal age.

It doesn't take a month to ship a firearm.