Unregister a serial number for a returned firearm?

[mattmcg]

Need some information about a situation I recently experienced. I purchased a stripped AR15 lower, went through the DROS process and 10 day wait, and took delivery. After getting it home, found the lower was defective, the manufacturer forgot to drill the hole for the buffer tube retaining pin.

I returned the lower to the manufacturer who is shipping a replacement to my FFL to go through the process again which will include a separate serial number. They also mentioned they would likely drill the hole in the defective lower and sell it as a blem to someone else.

Given that the defective serial number is now registered in my name in CA and will be subsequently sold to someone else, can I "unregister" the lower with the CA DOJ?

I like to keep things clean and a serial number out there going to who knows who, could erroneously come back to me at some point. Would rather unregister so that DOJ's records do not point back to me just in case.

Any info would be appreciated!

[Garbcollector]

I'm pretty sure once it's registered to you there is no way to "unregistere" here in CA. I'm sure someone will chime in with more knowledge soon

[Librarian]

If it gets resold in CA, the DROS process will associate that new buyer with the SN.

But generally there is no way to remove you or a gun from CA's AFS.

[edgerly779]

File as no longer in possession naming mfg as new owner.

[Quiet]

File as no longer in possession naming mfg as new owner.

Doing this also requires you to attach the manufacturer's info (FFL #, address) and documentation that the firearm was shipped to the manufacturer, the manufacturer acknowledging they received the firearm, and the manufacturer not intending to return the firearm to you. IF none of this info is included, then CA DOJ BOF will not process the Notice of No Longer in Possession due to the firearm being returned to the manufacturer.

Once it the report is processed, the firearm's AFS record will be amended so that your info is moved from current owner to previous owner.

[BigPimping]

Surrender to law enforcement and file as no longer in possession.

[SVT-40]

Surrender to law enforcement and file as no longer in possession.

If you surrender a firearm to law Enforcement in Ca, that agency enters the serial number into AFS as being surrendered to Law Enforcement.

There is no need or reason to file NLIP.

[ohsmily]

I'm pretty sure once it's registered to you there is no way to "unregistere" here in CA. I'm sure someone will chime in with more knowledge soon

If it gets resold in CA, the DROS process will associate that new buyer with the SN.

But generally there is no way to remove you or a gun from CA's AFS.

Incorrect. You can file the Notice of No Longer in Possession form. Should remove from AFS.

[Spyder]

Surrender to law enforcement and file as no longer in possession.

How would the OP get it replaced by the manufacturer, if the defective one is not returned to them?

[SkyHawk]

I would have had them fix it and ship it right back to my door. Now you have to pay DROS fees again and make two round trips to the FFL. That seems a lot to go through for an anodized hole versus a non anodized hole. I would have just brushed the hole with paint or alumahyde and baked it in the oven.


I guess if this is a high end billet lower or big name forged lower (Colt, Knights, Noveske etc) maybe it is a different story. But no way, no how am I going through all this for a $40 Anderson lower or the like.

[Librarian]

Incorrect. You can file the Notice of No Longer in Possession form. Should remove from AFS.

Why do you think that is true?

It might remove the association between the OP and that serial/weapon, but actually removing from AFS?

[RickD427]

File as no longer in possession naming mfg as new owner.

Doing this also requires you to attach the manufacturer's info (FFL #, address) and documentation that the firearm was shipped to the manufacturer, the manufacturer acknowledging they received the firearm, and the manufacturer not intending to return the firearm to you. IF none of this info is included, then CA DOJ BOF will not process the Notice of No Longer in Possession due to the firearm being returned to the manufacturer.

Once it the report is processed, the firearm's AFS record will be amended so that your info is moved from current owner to previous owner.

Incorrect. You can file the Notice of No Longer in Possession form. Should remove from AFS.

Filing a "No Longer in Possession" form will not result in the DROS transaction information being removed from the AFS. All that it will accomplish is to create a record within the AFS that you made the report.

Please keep in mind that the AFS is a historical database. All that it does is to record that certain actions took place on a certain date. That is all that it does. It is quite different from a current registry, like the DMV's Vehicle License File. I can run a license plate in the DMV system and learn who is the current registered owner of a car. I cannot run a firearm in the AFS and learn who is the current owner. All the AFS will tell me is what historical records exist for the that firearm. I can use that information to infer who is the current owner, but I cannot use that information to determine the current owner.

In your case, the fact that the firearm was DROS'd to you on a particular date remains a historically correct fact, regardless of what later occurs with that firearm.

[ohsmily]

Filing a "No Longer in Possession" form will not result in the DROS transaction information being removed from the AFS. All that it will accomplish is to create a record within the AFS that you made the report.

Please keep in mind that the AFS is a historical database. All that it does is to record that certain actions took place on a certain date. That is all that it does. It is quite different from a current registry, like the DMV's Vehicle License File. I can run a license plate in the DMV system and learn who is the current registered owner of a car. I cannot run a firearm in the AFS and learn who is the current owner. All the AFS will tell me is what historical records exist for the that firearm. I can use that information to infer who is the current owner, but I cannot use that information to determine the current owner.

In your case, the fact that the firearm was DROS'd to you on a particular date remains a historically correct fact, regardless of what later occurs with that firearm.

That was a long explanation. You didnt discuss what happens when you run a person in your database and see what guns are reg'ed to them. The form will remove them as the owner. My statement is that it removes the submitter as the owner of the gun. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less. Removing that association is absolutely key for myriad reasons, including if someone becomes prohibited (that gun is no longer associated with their name) or if the gun is used in a crime, they don't come back as the owner though it can, of course be seen that they DROS'ed the gun at some point in the past. The submitter is REMOVED as the CURRENT owner of the gun. You and Librarian are seemingly being deliberately and glibly exacting. You're right that the gun and the submitter don't disappear from AFS. However, the form accomplishes the goal of removing the submitter as the registered owner if they submit the appropriate supporting documentation. My clients need to do this all the time if served with an EPO, TRO, RO, or become otherwise prohibited. Of course nothing is scrubbed or obliterated from the record.

[Bullets&Whitewalls]

If it were mine I would have the MFR fix the existing one. You can ship it to them and they can ship it back to you repaired.

[RickD427]

That was a long explanation. You didnt discuss what happens when you run a person in your database and see what guns are reg'ed to them. The form will remove them as the owner. My statement is that it removes the submitter as the owner of the gun. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less. Removing that association is absolutely key for myriad reasons, including if someone becomes prohibited (that gun is no longer associated with their name) or if the gun is used in a crime, they don't come back as the owner though it can, of course be seen that they DROS'ed the gun at some point in the past. The submitter is REMOVED as the CURRENT owner of the gun. You and Librarian are seemingly being deliberately and glibly exacting. You're right that the gun and the submitter don't disappear from AFS. However, the form accomplishes the goal of removing the submitter as the registered owner if they submit the appropriate supporting documentation. My clients need to do this all the time if served with an EPO, TRO, RO, or become otherwise prohibited. Of course nothing is scrubbed or obliterated from the record.

Actually, no, the form does not remove them as "the owner."

I've been retired for eight years now, so I don't have an exact recollection of the verbiage used in AFS returns.

The AFS can be queried in a number of different ways, most commonly by name, or by weapon make and serial number.

When queried by name, it will return all weapons indexed to the name. You can't really rely on those returns being the most current, so if there is a weapon of interest, you need to run it again by serial number to determine if the name hit is the most current record for the weapon.

When queried by serial number, you get all records indexed to that number. For a weapon that has been transferred many times, you'll see every transaction record.

I once purchased a S&W 66 from a dealer who assured me that it was "New, in the box." I did the DROS and 4473 paperwork and kept the weapon in the safe for several years. I later elected to carry it as a duty weapon with LASD. I was required to complete an LASD personnel document in order to do so, and that document required a copy of the AFS record for the weapon. I then saw that the AFS contained a DROS record for the weapon prior to mine (by about 90 days). I contacted the dealer and learned that the weapon had been previously sold, but had never been delivered to the buyer (at least that 's what the dealer said).

Thirty years later, I submitted a private person's request to DOJ for all AFS records in my name. The document returned to me by DOJ was very significantly redacted from the underlying AFS records. It appeared to have been "scrubbed" of any names other than my own. If your understanding of AFS records was drawn from the private inquiry avenues, you would very reasonably conclude that name information is removed from the AFS, but that isn't the case.

For your purposes in representing clients, the distinctions that I've made are probably nothing more than semantic. But I'm speaking to a larger audience here on Calguns. My major point about the AFS being a historical database, rather than a current registry, has significance to other LEOs and to those who may have interactions with the DOJ APPS Unit (the nice folks who follow up on prohibited persons). The key point being that a "stale" AFS record cannot be used to support a legal conclusion that a named person is currently in possession of the firearm. I've seen that distinction pointed out by more than one judge when reviewing search warrant affidavits in firearms cases.

Quite frankly, If we're looking at someone as a criminal suspect, the fact that they self-reported themselves as no longer possessing a particular firearm, really isn't going to change the conduct of the investigation in the least.