Massad Ayoob - Deadly Force in Self-Defense: What You Need to Know

[L84CABO]

New video on the Wilson Combat channel on when you can use deadly force. Always good to get a refresher on this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA5_pdmBI2E

[-hanko]

How 'bout...

...when you or others nearby feel in danger of impending death and/or grave physical harm. As I recall, that's California's law.

Not sure you need someone who's a legend in his own mind to say the same thing.

[L84CABO]

...when you or others nearby feel in danger of impending death and/or grave physical harm. As I recall, that's California's law.

Not sure you need someone who's a legend in his own mind to say the same thing.

There are LOTS of new gun owners right now. Many of which have little or no understanding of this. I'm not much of a fan of Massad. But his information is accurate and timely. If you would like to make a video on this topic, of equal quality, I will gladly replace his with yours.

Otherwise, thank you for your immeasurable contribution to this post.

[Dennis]

You bring up an important aspect of this topic. It's important to embrace new gun owners. To help educate them. I've been shooting all my life and find myself clueless in way too many aspect of this sport. All to often, in forums like these, a sense of superiority and arrogance can develop among the regular users. I believe that drives away more people than it attracts. We need to embrace new owners and help them as much as we can. As I help introduce my niece into this sport, I point her here. I wouldn't want anyone to make her feel "less than" for asking questions. Even if they might seem redundant.
Will there be trolls? Absolutely. There always will be. But there will also be people wanting information. We need to remind ourselves of this.

There are LOTS of new gun owners right now. Many of which have little or no understanding of this. I'm not much of a fan of Massad. But his information is accurate and timely. If you would like to make a video on this topic, of equal quality, I will gladly replace his with yours.

Otherwise, thank you for your immeasurable contribution to this post.

[climber32]

A lot of folks don't like Mas Ayoob. Having met the man, I do get that. Like a lot of strong personalities and folks possessed of strong opinions, he can be a polarizing figure.

With the qualifier that I am not a competition shooter. I am strictly a defensive/tactical shooter. Mas Ayoob's books and teachings have largely the basis for my approach/philosophy about/toward firearms for, let's be polite and say well over thirty years.

IMO any new shooter reading this, you would be hard pressed to find a better primer on defensive shooting than Massad Ayoob's books:

Start with: "In The Gravest Extreme", "Deadly Force" & if you do so, "Concealed Carry"

More advanced 'Combat Shooting" & "Stressfire"

More importantly for those, like me, who believe in shotguns for HD, you would be hard pressed to find a better primer than Stressfire II.

Yes, there are several others and some will disagree with Mass. I stand by my contention.

[five.five-six]

I think America can be broken down into 2 types of people. Those who can’t stand Massad Ayoob and those who voted for Trump.

[climber32]

Painting with broad brush strokes, that might be accurate.

That said and, and meaning no disrespect sir, but I am living proof that is not universally true.

[-hanko]

I think America can be broken down into 2 types of people. Those who can’t stand Massad Ayoob and those who voted for Trump.

You think incorrectly in this case.

Our Trump vote was automatic.

I've taken LF I and LF II from Ayoob. He is, imo, fos.

I've asked him a few times in person and 6-7 times by email for a case citation, only one, where a modified gun caused a defendant to be found guilty after an otherwise "good shoot".

Mas' only response?..."I'll get back to you on that".

Take a class from him and you'll see what I mean.

[JCHavasu]

Unlike some here I have never taken a class taught by Massad, but have read a lot he has written over the years and watched videos of him teaching. Like any other expert, you have to use critical thinking skills and not take what he says as gospel.

As stated in the post above he is very big on the modified gun thing. I am with him on the potential for issues when we get into punisher logos, "You're ****ed" on an AR dust cover, etc. Those types of things give attorneys more to argue. Accuracy mods, etc of course can still be argued that you were "looking to shoot someone", but can also be argued that you were more responsible in getting training and thinking about accuracy. I'm still not aware of any case where mods made the difference in a criminal case. A civil case is much more likely to be an issue.

[five.five-six]

I will say this, Ayoop seems to have settled down over they years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j4PS_8R5IE

I have worked with/around more than a few firearms instructors and they almost universally are completely full of themselves. I think, like "personal trainers" the profession attracts that personality type. I don't take what any of them say as gospel, rather I compile it with my collective knowledge set. Ayoop has made great contributions to that knowledge set.

[-hanko]

Unlike some here I have never taken a class taught by Massad, but have read a lot he has written over the years and watched videos of him teaching. Like any other expert, you have to use critical thinking skills and not take what he says as gospel.

As stated in the post above he is very big on the modified gun thing. I am with him on the potential for issues when we get into punisher logos, "You're ****ed" on an AR dust cover, etc. Those types of things give attorneys more to argue. Accuracy mods, etc of course can still be argued that you were "looking to shoot someone", but can also be argued that you were more responsible in getting training and thinking about accuracy. I'm still not aware of any case where mods made the difference in a criminal case. A civil case is much more likely to be an issue.

The issue may be that many take what he says AS gospel.

The dust cover inscription made no difference in that particular trial as the judge tossed it out.

Ayoob just cannot get over himself.

[JCHavasu]

The issue may be that many take what he says AS gospel.

The dust cover inscription made no difference in that particular trial as the judge tossed it out.

Ayoob just cannot get over himself.

Agreed, and the fact that the dust cover made no difference in the trial supports the assertion that Ayoob is making much ado about nothing. But I still don't put dust covers like that, or anything similar on my firearms. IMHO there is no upside to it. It could theoretically cause me more problems, and in no way does it add any benefit.

[five.five-six]

Agreed, and the fact that the dust cover made no difference in the trial supports the assertion that Ayoob is making much ado about nothing. But I still don't put dust covers like that, or anything similar on my firearms. IMHO there is no upside to it. It could theoretically cause me more problems, and in no way does it add any benefit.

Just playing devil's advocate on this one but how many billable hours were spent gettin the dust cover thrown out?

[JCHavasu]

Just playing devil's advocate on this one but how many billable hours were spent gettin the dust cover thrown out?

I assume you mean that the dust cover still caused a net loss, which I agree with. Although I'm not sure how much time was even spent on it and have don't want to try and dig into the case history to figure it out.

My attitude is any modification could theoretically be used to argue against you. Now accuracy mods have a benefit on the performance side which offset the potential arguments IMO. "Look at how badass I am" stuff like punisher logos and such add nothing of value.

[-hanko]

There are LOTS of new gun owners right now. Many of which have little or no understanding of this. I'm not much of a fan of Massad. But his information is accurate and timely. If you would like to make a video on this topic, of equal quality, I will gladly replace his with yours.

Otherwise, thank you for your immeasurable contribution to this post.

You're more than welcome for the contribution. I've seen Ayoob twice, in person. Definitely a waste of time, not to mention money.

A new shooter's education can start with some reading or an introduction class as to when you can shoot and when you cannot.

If your idea of accurate training is Ayoob, you might want to look around a bit.