VFG on second ar pistol upper?

[Garrett52]

[Master_Prestige]

[SCVlongstroke]

If it’s federally legal then it’s illegal in California

[Sig so sour of ca]

I know there WAS a way to do that, but I'm not sure of the particulars. CA measures in the shortest position the AOW can be fired in. There's also an opinion from doj? that came out recently about how braces have to be X in length or it considers it a rifle.

Wait for the legal eagles to answer this, I personally don't like to push it and wouldn't run a VFG

[sigstroker]

ATF requires a brace to be X or shorter (dunno what X is) wrt to lop. It's short enough to not be really comfortable when shouldered. I would think that in CA that people don't have collapsible braces like the SBA3.

[Quiet]

I know there WAS a way to do that, but I'm not sure of the particulars. CA measures in the shortest position the AOW can be fired in. There's also an opinion from doj? that came out recently about how braces have to be X in length or it considers it a rifle.

Wait for the legal eagles to answer this, I personally don't like to push it and wouldn't run a VFG

CA measures overall length of firearms while they are in the shortest possible firing configuration.

BATFE measures overall length of Title 1 Rifle, Title 1 Shotgun, Title 2 SBR, and Title 2 SBS while they are in the longest possible firing configuration.
^Firearms designed/intended to be fired from the shoulder.

BATFE measures overall length of Title 1 Handgun, Title 1 Other, and Title 2 AOW while they are in the shortest possible firing configuration.
^Firearms not designed/intended to be fired from the shoulder.

In 02-2018, BATFE determined the method to measuring overall length to determine if a firearm is a Title 1 Handgun, Title 1 Other, or Title 2 AOW as the following:
1. Firearm is measured in the shortest possible firing configuration (arm stablizing brace is removed or folded/collapsed if it permanently attached).

Per BATFE...
Since the firearm is not intended to be fired from the shoulder, the arm stablizing brace can not be included in measuring overall length to determine what type of non-rifle/shotgun firearm it is.

This all stems from a FFL being busted by the BATFE for making & transferring illegal Title 2 AOW.
The FFL was making & selling the firearms as Title 1 Other (less than 16" barrel length, vertical forward grip, arm stablizing brace) because with the arm stablizing brace extended the firearms had an overall length that was greater than 26".
However, with the arm stablizing brace removed or collapsed/folded (for those that were permanently attached), the firearms overall length was less than 26". This caused the BATFE to consider the firearms to be Title 2 AOW, not Title 1 Other.
End result was an administrative action. The FFL agreed to ceased what they were doing to avoid criminal charges, the firearms they made were confiscated as illegally made Title 2 AOW, and people who acquired the firearms were given a 90 day grace period to surrender the firearms or submit a Form 4 for AOW. There have been no reports of anyone not complying with either option past the grace period.

Also, per BATFE...
If the arm stablizing brace has a length of pull of 13.5" or greater, then it is considered a shoulder stock and not an arm stablizing brace.

[Garrett52]

The question is more about having two different complete uppers. One that results in an oal over 26” with a vfg (end of buffer tube to end of barrel without a muzzle device) and one as a standard pistol without vfg. And if it is legal to use both uppers on the same lower. Basically, getting a complete, legally build at pistol and buying an extra upper.

[hitdank]

Sounds like you just leave the grip on the longer barreled upper.

[ar15barrels]

Are you asking about compliance with Federal or California laws or both?
Because all of them apply...

Is the pistol already a registered AW?

[Garrett52]

Are you asking about compliance with Federal or California laws or both?
Because all of them apply...

Is the pistol already a registered AW?

Both California and federal. Not registered

[Garrett52]

Sounds like you just leave the grip on the longer barreled upper.

[Quiet]

Under CA laws/regulations...

There are no "other" firearms.

A firearm with a less than 16" barel length is a "handgun". [PC 16640(a) & 16530(a)]
A firearm that is not a "handgun" is a "long gun". [PC 16865]

SSE2 pistols must have a minimum overall length of 10.5". [PC 32100(b)]

It is CA legal for a semi-auto pistol that has a fixed magazine and a manually operated pistol to have a threaded barrel, second handgrip, shroud, and have it's magazine located outside of the pistol's grip.

[ar15barrels]

Under CA laws/regulations...

There are no "other" firearms.

A firearm with a less than 16" barel length is a "handgun". [PC 16640(a) & 16530(a)]
A firearm that is not a "handgun" is a "long gun". [PC 16865]

16865.
As used in Section 26860, “long gun” means any firearm that is not a handgun or a machinegun.

26860. (a) Except as authorized by the department, commencing January 1, 2015, a firearms dealer shall not deliver a long gun unless the recipient performs a safe handling demonstration with that long gun.

16865 Appears to only be used in relation to safe handling demonstrations though.
That's not a code-wide definition otherwise it should state as such by applying it to a MUCH higher branch on the tree of codes.

If you think it DOES apply to all uses of "long gun" in the firearms codes, then this would be the code that kills the Franklin Title 1.