Why of gun owners' ego and attitude when getting called out?

[Milsurp1]

[Wordupmybrotha]

I'm in the MYOB crowd as well.
Not being able to rapid fire and not being able to load mags behind the firing line are lame rules. Not a safety issue. I let the RSO handle it.

It would annoy me if somebody told me what to do. It's not just a gun owner thing. People don't want to be called out anywhere. They'll repent in private after being corrected, but nobody likes to be embarrassed in public.

[Wordupmybrotha]

You also called out the guy in front of his girl. No bueno. Of course he gave you attitude.

[dmesloh]

Out of curiosity, since some non-shooters load magazines - not weapons - on the benches behind the firing line in my range groups - is that prohibited?

Never heard or saw that people were asked not to do that - ?

My only experience is in Humboldt and I've never been questioned about loading mags on the bench behind the firing line, my handguns are at the firing line locked open facing down range.

[audiophil2]

i see that all the posters who keep complaining about the "No Rapid Fire" rule being stupid didn't look closely at the photo OP put up of his kid's target.

look at the top edge of the photo. see those holes in the CEILING Tiles.

so if there is rules against rapid fire, but yet holes still appear on the ceiling tiles which are nowhere near the target, then think about what would happen if ranges did allow rapid fire.

ranges have to account for the lowest iq shooters, not the highest.

they have to protect themselves and their customers from the dummies that will show up to rent a gun to shoot.

i will say that i have been to the OC Range before early morning once where i was the only one on the line, and they ignored it when i was firing a bit faster than the 1 per second rule, and my buddy was reloading the empty magazines behind me on the bench.

but the RSO did say once another customer comes in, we would have to follow all the rules.

Lousy shooters should be singled out and corrected or kicked to the curb.

I take machine guns that fire up to 1800 rounds per minute to indoor ranges. Almost all AZ indoor and outdoor ranges allow machine guns with zero to few additional restrictions.

In my limited observations I have noticed ceiling holes occur more often when short people (kids/women) shoot paper at very close range. The angle causes bullets to hit the ceiling. Some guys will be bad shooters. They can be dealt with by a RSO and not some nanny in the next lane.

Funny how so many ranges in free states allow rapid fire. Does that infer something about CA gun owners?

[OCEquestrian]

In my limited observations I have noticed ceiling holes occur more often when short people (kids/women) shoot paper at very close range. The angle causes bullets to hit the ceiling. Some guys will be bad shooters. They can be dealt with by a RSO and not some nanny in the next lane.

It has been my personal observation that holes in the ceiling are from all the ND's by morons who fail to take their finger off the trigger when loading / manipulating the gun and when shooting, when their sights move off the target. Another guilty group are the ones who, and I watched a guy do this last night at an indoor range, let the gun recoil up several inches with every shot...with their fingers still on the trigger...

[Scratch705]

Funny how so many ranges in free states allow rapid fire. Does that infer something about CA gun owners?

well yeah. in CA gun owners are the minority and the majority of those visiting indor rental ranges will be noobs and thus very dangerous/clueless about proper gun rules, skills and etiquette.

in free states where gun ownership is probably on the higher end, or at least more exposure to gun use in prevelant, the ranges can assume higher gun knowledge/skills from visitors to the indoor range.

isn't this why rental ranges in hawaii tie the gun up with steel cables on the firing line for rentals? where it makes it impossible to point the muzzle anywhere but down range?

[Stumpfenhammer]

There is one drill that you can do always, I believe they call it "50-50."

You load one round, draw (or present, if drawing is not allowed), fire the shot and dry-fire the follow up. This is a really good practice that I do outdoors too - it forces you to see the second shot and it forces you to evaluate your grip and recoil control. If you push on the gun to keep it from raising, it's painfully obvious on the second shot. While you cannot measure the speed of the follow up, it's still a great drill.

Good one, thanks, added to my list. Here's a video of it as well: https://youtu.be/i_RLY7DSjg8

One question though: In your experience, does this affect your "timing" during rapid fire? I may have a wrong concept here but I believe I've developed a timing of (controlled) pushing down to offset recoil. I also recall having heard or read someone like Vogel or Leatham discussing that same timing. Not completely confident in my recollection or logic though, hence the question.

[Wordupmybrotha]

well yeah. in CA gun owners are the minority and the majority of those visiting indor rental ranges will be noobs and thus very dangerous/clueless about proper gun rules, skills and etiquette.

in free states where gun ownership is probably on the higher end, or at least more exposure to gun use in prevelant, the ranges can assume higher gun knowledge/skills from visitors to the indoor range.

isn't this why rental ranges in hawaii tie the gun up with steel cables on the firing line for rentals? where it makes it impossible to point the muzzle anywhere but down range?

I think it's probably region-specific, not the entire state.
For example, gun ranges close to the Las Vegas strip probably gets more noobie tourists than Burbank.

[70runner]

Op, get your son outdoors for some shooting fun. Indoors is the worst possible shooting experience imo. Outdoors is where it's at. It's worth the drive AND you can rapid fire, which is not only fun but shooting quickly, accurately, is a good skill to work on.

Yup. Neighbor and I visit our outdoor range usually midweek, late afternoon. Often we have the rifle range to ourselves while the RSO (retired Seal) is at the pistol/CQB range practicing rapid fire techniques. As long as we're the only ones there, we'll even do some pistol work on the rifle range 50yd target so as to not interrupt the RSO. Very relaxed, enjoyable environment, nearly the opposite of a typical public indoor experience.

[audiophil2]

well yeah. in CA gun owners are the minority and the majority of those visiting indor rental ranges will be noobs and thus very dangerous/clueless about proper gun rules, skills and etiquette.

in free states where gun ownership is probably on the higher end, or at least more exposure to gun use in prevelant, the ranges can assume higher gun knowledge/skills from visitors to the indoor range.

isn't this why rental ranges in hawaii tie the gun up with steel cables on the firing line for rentals? where it makes it impossible to point the muzzle anywhere but down range?

That makes little sense. While gun owners are the minority of the CA population they are the majority inside a gun range. While everyone has to start off as a rookie eventually the rookies become minimally proficient. Since there are far more indoor ranges in the cities than outdoor ranges it only makes sense that there will be a very diverse skill level from rookie to seasoned at any given indoor gun range. Yet the rules lean more toward incompetence with a gun. I only see that in CA. Even in IL many indoor ranges allow rapid fire as long as the shooter shows proficiency.

Never been to HI. It is a tourist spot for asians so it makes sense to have guns chained down. Rent to people that never shot a gun before and you have issues. Still, a chain will not prevent a ceiling strike.

[IVC]

One question though: In your experience, does this affect your "timing" during rapid fire? I may have a wrong concept here but I believe I've developed a timing of (controlled) pushing down to offset recoil. I also recall having heard or read someone like Vogel or Leatham discussing that same timing. Not completely confident in my recollection or logic though, hence the question.

I have never seen anywhere that "pushing down" would be acceptable - as far a I know, everyone who ever tried it determined that it significantly deteriorated accuracy without any gain in speed. I might be wrong, so you might want to double check on Enos forum.

Big part of my live fire training is to eliminate any movement that is masked by recoil, so that my gun holding and trigger control are the same as in the dry-fire. When gun jumps around in recoil, you don't know whether you are subconsciously providing large force inputs unless you work on isolating and eliminating it. That's just something that works for me and which I believe is by far the best way to shoot.

As for "timing," it's not about any additional active input, it's about timing the sights coming down to the original point of aim instead of letting them bounce around and settle down. If you can fire the first time the sights go through the original position, you are firing as fast as the recoil allows you. In practice, you will have to develop grip control where the gun moves in a very short stroke vertically within your target, so that you can keep pulling the trigger without missing.

Take all of this with a grain of salt, I'm just a guy on the Internet...

[Scratch705]

That makes little sense. While gun owners are the minority of the CA population they are the majority inside a gun range. While everyone has to start off as a rookie eventually the rookies become minimally proficient. Since there are far more indoor ranges in the cities than outdoor ranges it only makes sense that there will be a very diverse skill level from rookie to seasoned at any given indoor gun range. Yet the rules lean more toward incompetence with a gun. I only see that in CA. Even in IL many indoor ranges allow rapid fire as long as the shooter shows proficiency.

Never been to HI. It is a tourist spot for asians so it makes sense to have guns chained down. Rent to people that never shot a gun before and you have issues. Still, a chain will not prevent a ceiling strike.

that is only my assumption of why CA indoor ranges have more strict rules than those out of state.

i'm sure my opinion is half wrong but with some slice of truth.

maybe for all i know it is a CA insurance + lower tolerance by CA cities issuing the permits so indoor ranges have to be more strict than in other states?

but with my own personal experience with OC Indoor, the RSO allowed me to shoot faster than 1 rd/second when he did see me be proficient and there was no other patrons on the line. once there were other customers, he enforced all the rules to everyone.